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Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

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Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#81
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speculative fields have became more noticeable. Though, can you tell me what is not speculative in social culture? If one were to push it, what you call "fake disciplines" can extend to most of human society. Don't go there.

My fake discipline comment is a direct response to the havoc wrought by attempting to place a normal distribution, which worked so nicely in insurance when dealing with things like lifespan, on top of a chaotic system like finance. Long Term Capital Management, Value at Risk, and other models from very, very smart quantitative minds who simply misunderstood the problem space and almost took down the world economy. I…

I don't understand. A fake discipline is a field that is complicated, important, and one where even smart people have difficulty understanding/modelling?

Is environmental engineering also a fake discipline since it's difficult to model and various disasters have resulted?

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#82
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speculative fields have became more noticeable. Though, can you tell me what is not speculative in social culture? If one were to push it, what you call "fake disciplines" can extend to most of human society. Don't go there.

My fake discipline comment is a direct response to the havoc wrought by attempting to place a normal distribution, which worked so nicely in insurance when dealing with things like lifespan, on top of a chaotic system like finance. Long Term Capital Management, Value at Risk, and other models from very, very smart quantitative minds who simply misunderstood the problem space and almost took down the world economy. I…

fake discipline might have been a poor choice of words. My intent was to indict a process of using quantitative skills in a manner that was supposed to "add rigor" to finance, to encapsulate and tame risk. It didn't work.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#83
post #69
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe my comment took account of the role that some extreme religious viewpoints play, while stating that the moderate majority is capable of accepting science. It seems no matter what I write you are blaming me for having an extreme stance. I do not. There is no reason for me to give all religion viewpoints a pass. I will not. There's no reason to take criticism of any religious sect as a criticism of all religi…

I don't know what your stance is and I don't know the book's stance is. All I know is what the synopsis and the comments state its primary arguments are - that religion is the cause of trouble with scientific literacy of the US public. Beyond that I have made no comments, but I see a lot of downvoting and feather ruffling in response to simple statement of facts. I did show with a link that the premise of the argumen…

You were downvoted because your response so completely misinterpreted the parent's comment that the most generous interpretation was that you didn't read it carefully. While rational argument is good, one-way arguments are bad.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there were a few times when we had blips higher. In the late 1800s and early 1900s and during the space race. I can't find specific data on it, so it is possible that re-written history has led me astray on this point. I also think, given the pipeline visible in research, we will have a resurgence in a decade or two.

Your assumption is that an increased labor force will result in an increase in productivity.

I wasn't thinking in terms of labor force. I was assuming current research could lead to tech that has a very large impact on our daily lives, and that this impact would increase positive perception the public has of scientists and engineers. I think this happened in the early 1900s and could happen again.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#86
post #78
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that the American distrust of intellectualism is itself not the irrational thing that those sympathetic to intellectuals would like to think. Intellectuals killed by the millions in the 20th century, and it actually takes the sophisticated training of "education" to work yourself up into a state where you refuse to count that in the books. Intellectuals routinely declared things that aren't tru…

Wait a second. Maybe I need some reeducation myself here, but you're pinning the mass-murders of the 20th century on "intellectuals"? And then saying that's the explanation for the present day trend of distrust in science? (Well, that plus the egg flip-flop.) I'm not granting the premise, but even if I did, it's quite a non-sequitur. You blame scientists for "fail[ing] to resist politicization" without mentioning tha…

'but you're pinning the mass-murders of the 20th century on "intellectuals"?'

Intellectuals provided the impetus and moral theory for the revolutions, started the revolutions, enabled the continuation of them, and in the non-Communist countries flew active cover for them. We still have intellectuals today like Friedman who fly as much cover for murderous totalitarian regimes as they can; it hasn't even stopped. Intellectuals are yet to give up Marxism, despite what it actually does. It flatters them so, a toxic meme that can only strike the smart.

It wasn't every last person everywhere who might have called themselves an intellectual, but it sure wasn't "the common man" reading Marx and deciding to break out the pitchforks. "I am a barely literate peasant and I demand the immediate centralization of all power into the government so it can be run by the intellectual elite, create a single central bank, eliminate my religion, abolish my private property, remove my means of communication into centralized control of the state, and write glorious Five Year Plans so I can stop farming potatos!" They provided a driving force for change, but the change itself was controlled by intellectuals.

"Intellectuals" may not be solely responsible, but they weren't even remotely innocent, and it is entirely irrational to pretend that intellectual ideas not accompanied by humility and an intense effort made to discover whether those ideas are actually true before making grand pronouncements that move countries have not had massive negative impacts in our world today.

"one of our major political parties and it's major financial backers hate the policy implications of some important scientific conclusions"

I assure you Democrats are equally prone to it. If you think the Democrats have been some great boon to true science it's only because you're a Democrat yourself. As neither Republican nor Democrat, neither political party (emphasis "political") has particularly impressed me with their devotion to scientific truth. Though I will concede the Democrats have done a great deal better job pretending in the past decade, at least inasmuch as it was politically convenient.

And remember perception really matters here. You may refuse to chalk up these actions to "intellectualism" no matter what contortions you have to go through to account only good to its cause and discard the evil, but those of a "simpler, less intellectual" bent won't go through those contortions, and that's not necessarily irrational. It's no great wonder "I'm an intellectual and I'm here to give you the answer!" isn't something that makes an American drop everything to listen.

(And they have done great good, too. One Norman Borlaug can offset an awful lot. But it's not a path to an accurate picture of the intellectual history of the 20th century to take credit for Norman but dance away from, for example, Eugenics, to name just one problematic entirely-intellectual idea, and what it wrought.)

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#87

Lawyers and MBAs made twice to 10x the money for the same or less amount of work.

I don't think lawyers do the same or less amount of work than scientists and engineers. I've watched up close a big patent suit (I was one of the inventors named on the patent, and the only one available for the trial), and at least in that area of law, the lawyers worked more hours sustained than any scientist or engineer I've known.

When I was in my early 30's I got burned out on programming, and went to law school with the intent of going into patent and copyright law. However, after the third year, when I had one paper to write to graduate, I went back to my old job for the summer. I was no longer burned out on programming, and I also had the worst case of writers block in the history of the universe, so never got around to writing that last paper.

Having watched the lawyers during the patent suit, I am pretty sure I dodged a bullet by not becoming a lawyer.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors, cops, and lawyers interact with other people in interesting ways. Scientists and engineers generally interact with machines in interesting way. Much more difficult to make a story about that.

I'm sorry, I can't do that, Dave.

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#89
post #87

Lawyers and MBAs made twice to 10x the money for the same or less amount of work.

I don't think lawyers do the same or less amount of work than scientists and engineers. I've watched up close a big patent suit (I was one of the inventors named on the patent, and the only one available for the trial), and at least in that area of law, the lawyers worked more hours sustained than any scientist or engineer I've known. When I was in my early 30's I got burned out on programming, and went to law school…

Having family members who are/were high powered lawyers (working for international firms, taking home 300K UKP per year or more), they certainly spend very long hours and lots of time in meetings, and certainly have to read a great deal in order to review carefully very long documents.

However I would make a distinction between hours spent in meetings, talking, and reviewing documents, vs. bringing as much brainpower as you can to solve a problem and do something new. Somehow the job of the scientist or engineer seems much harder - perhaps this is just my perception however.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#90
post #31
post #6

Read Anti-Intellectualism in America by Richard* Hofstadter; it's as true and relevant today, as it was back then. The decline, if any, probably has to do with the fact that there wasn't a Cold War where scientists could participate directly against a tangible threat and common purpose: “The Sputnik was more than a shock to American national vanity: it brought an immense amount of attention to bear on the consequence…

Part of the problem is that the American distrust of intellectualism is itself not the irrational thing that those sympathetic to intellectuals would like to think. Intellectuals killed by the millions in the 20th century, and it actually takes the sophisticated training of "education" to work yourself up into a state where you refuse to count that in the books. Intellectuals routinely declared things that aren't tru…

"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

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