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A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

theatlantic.com

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Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#71

If you are facing minimum of £27k tuition debt in England which AFAIK gathers interest from day one I would probably skip it. And it's even worse in the US. As far as webdev goes, you could do a bootcamp and be earning money within 6 months to a year. That's money that's hopefully going into your pension fund and earning interest while your peers are still in class. Or you could learn to code using cheap and/or free…

My concern would be whether people who take the bootcamp or self taught approach would have the grounding in engineering and CS theory that someone with a degree has. I tend to feel that under-emphasizing these things are why the software industry has so much of a problem with poor designs, low code quality, and missed deadlines. Maybe it would be possible to create a two year degree that would fill in those gaps.

Here are my opinions being in the industry through various roles as a dev, technical lead, and dev manager.

I think there is too much weight put on CS theory but it is valuable if you already have it through a degree.

Outside of FAANG and similar unicorn growth kind of companies nearly nobody else needs a new X or a different design of Y. I'd even go as far to say most of the time we don't even need to understand the internal of the tool itself.

Gut feel says upwards of 99% of companies just need existing solutions combined. I'd say 20% of the industry itself thinks they're actually apart of the 1% that are truly facing a problem nobody else has.

I've seen companies suffer from too much CS theory. They get caught up in the technical problems and the most ideal solutions instead of focusing on providing customer value.

We hear this through the many talks about premature optimization and reinventing the wheel but in the real world I hear a lot of individuals calling the work a hack when it isn't the most optimized solution.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big question is "what is Y in this case"?

To prove intelligence and conscientiousness? Probably PhD degree.

A PhD only signals that you have an unhealthy relationship with academia.

I've interviewed and worked with so many PhD from top tier schools and it's astounding to me that someone can spend 6+ years studying a quantitative science, at a school like MIT or Harvard and still not have a basic understanding of statistics, and worse be incapable of genuinely understanding any of the quantitative tools they used for years.

The current generation of PhDs don't know how to do any kind of real research, they simply know how to mechanically replicate the processes you need to survive in academia today.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#73

No one really goes to college and grad school to learn. Higher ed is commoditized as a: * insurance policy, where students use it to avoid limiting themselves to low-status and low-paying careers * lottery ticket, the gateway to a "prestige" career track [1] * status signaling mechanism, where young people flex their educational elitism [2] And higher ed is arguably bad at what its supposed be good at - a delivery me…

> If you have ever interviewed a fresh grad who didn't study "Cracking the Coding Interview"

Goodhart's Law.

> or did not have a few "side projects" under their belt

IME: end-of-course projects at places like MIT and Carneige Mellon are often much more impressive than the CRUD web app or copy-pasta Jupyter notebooks I tend to see from e.g. coding bootcamps or especially self-taught applicants. And students usually have a half dozen or more of those, in addition to internship projects.

Sometimes a self-taught person comes along with a genuinely impressive project, and I push hard to hire those folks. But for the most part it's silly little single-person-project web apps and such.

> The internet is the most effective information distribution delivery and it's much cheaper, no wonder the value of college is in question.

The questioning only really has a loud voice in places like the USA with horrendously expensive higher ed systems. I don't really hear a lot of griping about the cost of education or opining on internet alternatives when I'm in Munich or Vienna.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#74

No one really goes to college and grad school to learn. Higher ed is commoditized as a: * insurance policy, where students use it to avoid limiting themselves to low-status and low-paying careers * lottery ticket, the gateway to a "prestige" career track [1] * status signaling mechanism, where young people flex their educational elitism [2] And higher ed is arguably bad at what its supposed be good at - a delivery me…

status signaling has a bigger impact to employers as a basic signal of competency

I think the deluge of undergrad degrees is the cause of this? a degree isn't a meaningful differentiate? rather just a expected baseline all prospective employees must have

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it used to work like that in America. Graduate high school, get a decent paying union job in your hometown with an okay house to raise a family. Drink beer and watch sports on the weekends with neighborhood buddies. Work 30-40 years and retire.

Even on the relatively short timeline of the history of the US, the period you’re referring to was quite short.

Which was launched and substantially overlapped with a period where the US was the largest export manufacturing base left standing and where massive rebuilding was needed on more than one continent.

I hope to not experience a repeat of those initial conditions.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#76

No one really goes to college and grad school to learn. Higher ed is commoditized as a: * insurance policy, where students use it to avoid limiting themselves to low-status and low-paying careers * lottery ticket, the gateway to a "prestige" career track [1] * status signaling mechanism, where young people flex their educational elitism [2] And higher ed is arguably bad at what its supposed be good at - a delivery me…

> Perhaps it's the employer that should be training fresh grads, but that is not how the current job market works.

Funnily enough that is effectively what happens in many cases anyway. You still need to shell out the 40k for the undergrad degree to even get the opportunity to learn on the job.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#77
post #38

Nothing is a guarantee of a good life. It seems like people think you should be able to just check a few boxes, then slot into a 9-5 and have everything taken care of for you for the rest of your life. Well, it doesn't work like that. Even after college you're still going to have to plan and think and take action to make things happen for you. It's not just all going to fall into your lap because you took a few class…

>It seems like people think you should be able to just check a few boxes, then slot into a 9-5 and have everything taken care of for you for the rest of your life.

If you're not particularly ambitious, yes. The whole system runs on ordinary people's labor, and it's an authoritarian system: when you go to work, you're following orders. It shouldn't be on you to take constant initiative and exercise your intelligence in finding new orders to follow, new ways to subordinate yourself to someone else's goals.

If you want to treat people as subordinates, you have to take care of them, and yes, that means taking off the anxiety and cognitive load of potential unemployment.

If you want people to do all this thinking for themselves, why shouldn't they recognize they're being exploited and get rid of you and your system?

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big question is "what is Y in this case"?

I think we should bring back the guild system. Start a job as an apprentice, mentor with a journeyman, progress your way up, mentor apprentices while learning from others higher up, gain sufficient knowledge to build your masterpiece, graduate as a master in your field, mentor journeymen. Move on.

8th Light is a software company that's been explicitly practicing apprenticeship for like 12 years

https://8thlight.com/blog/ryan-verner/2019/01/15/evolution-o...

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#79
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A job at Google? I've seen plenty of videos and articles with titles like: "Ex-googler explains the meaning of life".

Perhaps it is only upon leaving Google that one achieves transcendence? (Source: I work at Google, yet still see life as often confusing and sometimes terrifying)

Better leave now while there's still value in leaving!

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#80
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A job at Google? I've seen plenty of videos and articles with titles like: "Ex-googler explains the meaning of life".

Perhaps it is only upon leaving Google that one achieves transcendence? (Source: I work at Google, yet still see life as often confusing and sometimes terrifying)

yes sometimes you need to see the worst in order to appreciate the little :-)
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