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Why forgiving someone else is about you

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Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#51

Post by ogurechny »

jerkstate wrote: post #35

One of the most important aspects of forgiveness is a credible apology. We all know people who can't or won't apologize for their transgressions, or heard apologies that don't address the core issues of the transgression. When you hear a small child apologize, it's reflexive, like they hope to use it as a shield for any retribution or punishment. The true purpose of an apology is to convey contrition and growth from…

This is a complete misunderstanding, in my opinion. It is not an accounting of receipts and expenditures, not some “game theory” example, not an investment onto “the betterment of a society”, etc. You don't need anything to forgive, to do the right thing, it is always in your power. It might be hard, but it has always been like that.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#52

Post by roenxi »

scottious wrote: post #25

As somebody who's struggling to forgive somebody who's wronged me, I find this article to be a bit wishy-washy, like this: > Reexamine your perceptions of life events that have trapped you in the role of victim. well, what if somebody really truly was a victim? What if one's parents have condescended and belittled them for decades? What if one's mother is abusive and drinks too much? What if somebody spent their enti…

I certainly agree; the signal to noise ratio is poor about why this stuff is a good idea. But it does get at some practical issues that are quite subtly layered:

1. Be realistic about what is likely to happen. If someone has a history of drinking and hasn't committed to stopping then they will probably continue. 'Forgiveness' doesn't mean stupid.

2. Don't make the past emotional. If someone chopped my leg off, for a silly example, then there is nothing I can do. Revenge does not regain me my leg. Seeking vengeance for the emotional pleasure is tragic; if a matter must be pursued then it should be to prevent a future risk (eg, losing the other leg) or for meaningful restitution (maybe they provide income for me since I can't work as effectively).

3. Strive to create prosperity. If someone hurt me in the past and I have an opportunity to better us both, it is foolish not to take that opportunity unless they are likely to do future harm.

4. Negotiate terms - keep asking for what you want, and be strategic about what you give ground on.

Bundle those four things together and the result is a very productive perspective that is hard to differentiate from forgiveness. The past is ultimately subjective and people who make good decisions going forward will get better results than people who make bad decisions and justify them with history. It is hard in practice.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#53

Post by watwut »

TeaDrunk wrote: post #39
scottious wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take the high road while they consistently take the low road long enough, eventually you'll feel like a complete push over who lacks self-respect. I personally have reached a breaking point in which I realize that if I don't do something different, then the people who've abused me will continue abusing me while all while I take the high road and try to be the better person. I wouldn't call it revenge, because…

I don’t think that is not taking the high road. When facing abuse, taking the high road is indeed not responding to the abuse with anything more than a firm, non malicious, self protecting establishment and enforcement of your personal boundaries. Refusing to respond at all and allowing abuse to continue can be construed as taking the high road but it isn’t the only way to healthily manage toxic people. (Revenge imo…

> Refusing to respond at all and allowing abuse to continue can be construed as taking the high road but it isn’t the only way to healthily manage toxic people.

In my experience, this is what people usually expect when they talk about "taking the high road" or "being the bigger person". It has zero to do with "healthily managing toxic people" and everything to do with comfort of whoever does not want to deal with conflict at your expense.

I had to unlearn these quite late, when I finally figured this out.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#54

Post by glenstein »

paulsutter wrote: post #7

In which we learn that forgiveness is a suitcase word (prone to useless debate as each party uses a different definition) https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase-words/

I would join others here in saying this is a useful concept. I wonder, though, if you were to drop it in conversation that anyone would know what you mean or if it would just disorient them and demand explanation.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#55

Post by trabant00 »

stupidcar wrote: post #50
trabant00 wrote: post #45

> Without forgiveness, accumulated resentments extract a toll, says forgiveness coach Kym Kennedy. Without snake oil your accumulated borxins extract a toll on your health, says snake oil salesman. We get angry to have an emotional STOP sign attached to certain experiences, people, things, etc. You should always forgive like you should always forget that fire burns. Go ahead, put your hand back in, get it out of your…

False dichotomy. Taking steps to heal yourself from damage, such as a physical burn or a psychological wound, doesn't necessarily mean not taking the threat seriously in future. Pain is a signal that teaches us a lesson. Once the lesson is learned, holding onto the pain can just be needless suffering.

You would be right if people would be rational, which they are not. They are emotional. If you forgive the abusive partner, the loan shark, the casino, etc, you return to them no matter what lessons you learned rationally. And this happens in real life a lot, it isn't just a theory.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#56

Post by qwerty456127 »

hawk_ wrote: post #42
qwerty456127 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the need for revenge/retribution I suspect is quite innate. Why? I can't imagine feeling this way for longer than some minutes.

perhaps you haven't been wronged in a significant way, and i hope it stays that way.

That probably is a "personality type" thing or something. Some people seem to value "justice" (and this way may want to punish somebody) instinctively. I value comfort, security, freedom and avoid wasting energy on anything which is not a big investment in these. If somebody would wrong me I would only invest myself in punishing him if I had a good reason to believe that's really going to scare whoever might be planning to wrong me or somebody else in future.

And I would not write about this if I wasn't curious about how does this work. Why do some people are the first kind and the other the second? Isn't energy conservation and danger avoidance a fundamental program of every living brain? Why would somebody really want to hurt somebody who isn't a threat any more? That feels so alien to me I become extremely curious.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#57

Post by OneGuy123 »

scottious wrote: post #25

As somebody who's struggling to forgive somebody who's wronged me, I find this article to be a bit wishy-washy, like this: > Reexamine your perceptions of life events that have trapped you in the role of victim. well, what if somebody really truly was a victim? What if one's parents have condescended and belittled them for decades? What if one's mother is abusive and drinks too much? What if somebody spent their enti…

You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did).

Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life.

But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issues, and that those issues caused them to act out. In other words: they didn't knew any better.

The side effect of their issues was that your life was misarable, so you moved away from them.

What has to be understood is that yes, you indeed were at a disadvantage. But now that you moved away it's only up to you what you make of this. You don't have to visit them or call them.

What is meant by "forgiveness" is that you have to realize that "yes, your parents have issues and there is nothing that can be done about it. But now I'm free of them, so from now on it's up to me".

Forgiveness also means that you don't actively hate on your parents: ironicaly hating your parents will NOT hurt them: you will only hurt yourself by hating on them because you yourself will create self-conflit & rage & hate withing YOURLSEF.

So it's more of a "what happened happened, I'm free of them now so from now on it's up to me" + the realization that actively hating on them will only hurt you, not them!

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#58

Post by dicytea »

coldtea wrote: post #19
paulsutter wrote: post #7

In which we learn that forgiveness is a suitcase word (prone to useless debate as each party uses a different definition) https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase-words/

Aren't those the only words that matter? Anything else, that everybody is clear and agrees on, might as well not be discussed at all...

The category doesn't necessarily imply any value judgement by itself, at least as discussed in that article.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#59

Post by jerkstate »

ogurechny wrote: post #51
jerkstate wrote: post #35

One of the most important aspects of forgiveness is a credible apology. We all know people who can't or won't apologize for their transgressions, or heard apologies that don't address the core issues of the transgression. When you hear a small child apologize, it's reflexive, like they hope to use it as a shield for any retribution or punishment. The true purpose of an apology is to convey contrition and growth from…

This is a complete misunderstanding, in my opinion. It is not an accounting of receipts and expenditures, not some “game theory” example, not an investment onto “the betterment of a society”, etc. You don't need anything to forgive, to do the right thing, it is always in your power. It might be hard, but it has always been like that.

Well like elsewhere in the thread, people have mentioned that forgiveness is a complicated word. You should definitely learn to "let it go" regardless of whether you've received any apology, in terms of not letting it affect your psyche negatively, but in terms of future interactions with someone who wronged you and can't show contrition or growth, you have no obligation to put yourself into a position where they can do the same thing to you again. Hence, not a full forgiveness because your interactions with them are altered.

Re: Why forgiving someone else is about you

#60

Post by orwin »

I think revenge and forgiveness are big words with a lot of different meanings.

Someone close to me was raped a few years back. No witnesses (yeah, he was her boss and asked her to stay a bit longer), so the perpetrator could walk of free of worries.

It was enraging, but we simply learned not to care. What's done is done. Is this forgiveness?

However everyone i talk to in the city where it happened know that the particular restaurant is owned by a rapist, and i've said multiple time, to multiple people, to always ask the nearest formation center to know if they forbid/discourage female cook to apprentice in some restaurants, and if they do, which ones. It's not really revenge, it is just not supporting rapists.

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