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Migrating Dropbox from Nginx to Envoy

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Re: Migrating Dropbox from Nginx to Envoy

#101

Post by JoshTriplett »

e40 wrote: post #40

Also note that we’ll cover the open source version of the Nginx, not its commercial version with additional features. It always kills me when very successful companies don't buy software from other companies. I remember being at a lunch with a prospective client that really loved our technology. About 1/2 way through, he said he really would love to purchase our software, but the CEO doesn't allow them to use anythin…

In a business context, I'd definitely consider paid support for an Open Source product. But I'm not interested in a proprietary version that I can't modify or get third-party support for or otherwise work with in a pinch; I'm certainly not going to make a business dependent on it. Push the proprietary version hard enough and I'll reconsider whether I even want to use the Open Source version, or if it might be on more tenuous ground that might get undermined in the future (pushing back on improvements to the Open Source version to maintain differentiation, or worse, deciding to switch to a non-FOSS license in the future).

Re: Migrating Dropbox from Nginx to Envoy

#102

Post by footlose_3815 »

e40 wrote: post #40

Also note that we’ll cover the open source version of the Nginx, not its commercial version with additional features. It always kills me when very successful companies don't buy software from other companies. I remember being at a lunch with a prospective client that really loved our technology. About 1/2 way through, he said he really would love to purchase our software, but the CEO doesn't allow them to use anythin…

Reminds me of private companies who profit from public resources.

Like selling tap water in bottles.

Re: Migrating Dropbox from Nginx to Envoy

#103

Post by nyanpasu64 »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #101
e40 wrote: post #40

Also note that we’ll cover the open source version of the Nginx, not its commercial version with additional features. It always kills me when very successful companies don't buy software from other companies. I remember being at a lunch with a prospective client that really loved our technology. About 1/2 way through, he said he really would love to purchase our software, but the CEO doesn't allow them to use anythin…

In a business context, I'd definitely consider paid support for an Open Source product. But I'm not interested in a proprietary version that I can't modify or get third-party support for or otherwise work with in a pinch; I'm certainly not going to make a business dependent on it. Push the proprietary version hard enough and I'll reconsider whether I even want to use the Open Source version, or if it might be on more…

> Push the proprietary version hard enough and I'll reconsider whether I even want to use the Open Source version

Qt is pushing hard for commercial licensing (which I heard prevents you from using the open-source version), putting L/GPL FUD on their websites, and trying to track users of their installers more.

Re: Migrating Dropbox from Nginx to Envoy

#104

Post by eric4smith »

It's interesting almost no web server provides an easy way to deal with multi-tenant multi-domain architectures in a good way that includes automatic SSL.

Caddy is the closest, but still not near enough.

There is this small segment of the market that we operate in that requires thousands of TLS connected domains to be hosted behind a dynamic backend. It's services like Tumblr, Wordpress.com, or any other hosting service where you can get a "custom domain" to point to your own blog or site.

NGINX - No.

Apache - Nope.

Caddy - Can do (but need lots of workarounds)

Envoy - Nope.

Everyone focuses on a few hand-coded domains and no automatic TLS. Maybe this part of the market is too small anyway. Sigh.

Re: Migrating Dropbox from Nginx to Envoy

#105

Post by JoshTriplett »

gitgud wrote: post #86
SaveTheRbtz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subject of monetizing opensource software is a tricky one. Some companies pursue the Open-Core principle, others monetize through the consulting services or cloud infrastructures. As for investing into opensource, Dropbox is trying to do that when possible, for example we (along with Automattic) did sponsor HTTP/2 development in Nginx.

Personally I think that monetisation of open-source goes against the consumer of the OSS in practically all cases. - Open-Core::: Features are not added to core, as they want people to upgrade. - Consulting::: Ease of use is ignored, as if it's too easy people won't need consultants. - Sponsoring Goals::: Software is almost held at ransom, until goals are reached. The best way to help open-source software is to donat…

> - Consulting::: Ease of use is ignored, as if it's too easy people won't need consultants.

Some problems can only be made so easy. Some problems require custom work. Sometimes you need paid support not because the product is low-quality but because you need to know that you can call someone at 3am because your service is down. There are lots of reasons to have consulting.

> - Sponsoring Goals::: Software is almost held at ransom, until goals are reached.

You're assuming the work would get done one way or another. Sometimes people have many other things they could be doing, and they need to justify spending more time on a project than they already do. Or sometimes, people have a fixed amount of time but they're happy to prioritize things people want and will pay for.

(No argument about open-core; that definitely has problems.)

Other great approaches include hosting the software as a service. Depending on the nature of a project, many people may want a service whose primary value proposition is "we'll host this for you so you don't have to maintain and administrate it".

Re: Migrating Dropbox from Nginx to Envoy

#106

Post by Johnny555 »

e40 wrote: post #40

Also note that we’ll cover the open source version of the Nginx, not its commercial version with additional features. It always kills me when very successful companies don't buy software from other companies. I remember being at a lunch with a prospective client that really loved our technology. About 1/2 way through, he said he really would love to purchase our software, but the CEO doesn't allow them to use anythin…

I don't see what's surprising -- companies that earn money selling product can make even more money by cutting costs. And if OSS software gives them an equivalent (or even better) solution, why wouldn't they use it? For any sizable production deployment, the cost of nginx licenses could be applied to hire a number of engineers to help maintain the OSS software.

I don't know what their volume licensing is like, but at $2500/server list price, costs add up quickly.

Re: Migrating Dropbox from Nginx to Envoy

#107

Post by PopeDotNinja »

e40 wrote: post #40

Also note that we’ll cover the open source version of the Nginx, not its commercial version with additional features. It always kills me when very successful companies don't buy software from other companies. I remember being at a lunch with a prospective client that really loved our technology. About 1/2 way through, he said he really would love to purchase our software, but the CEO doesn't allow them to use anythin…

I’m increasingly concerned about being screwed by non-OSS vendors. Imagine a use case like Slack. Say you have an employee that goes to visit a family member in Venezuela & connects to the company Slack. Slack has been given a mandate to terminate accounts for people in Venezuela by the Trump administration, and now your key employee is cut off from communication, or perhaps your Slack account gets flagged.

Re: Migrating Dropbox from Nginx to Envoy

#108

Post by JoshTriplett »

nyanpasu64 wrote: post #103
JoshTriplett wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a business context, I'd definitely consider paid support for an Open Source product. But I'm not interested in a proprietary version that I can't modify or get third-party support for or otherwise work with in a pinch; I'm certainly not going to make a business dependent on it. Push the proprietary version hard enough and I'll reconsider whether I even want to use the Open Source version, or if it might be on more…

> Push the proprietary version hard enough and I'll reconsider whether I even want to use the Open Source version Qt is pushing hard for commercial licensing (which I heard prevents you from using the open-source version), putting L/GPL FUD on their websites, and trying to track users of their installers more.

The model of "copyleft if your project is open, pay us if your project isn't open" is one where I have no problems or concerns, and will happily use the open version and recommend that people building something proprietary purchase a paid license. Nor will I typically worry about the motives or future of the project unless I have some other reason to. And the KDE Free Qt Foundation means I never have to worry about Qt going proprietary.

Re: Migrating Dropbox from Nginx to Envoy

#109

Post by mfontani »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #105
gitgud wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I think that monetisation of open-source goes against the consumer of the OSS in practically all cases. - Open-Core::: Features are not added to core, as they want people to upgrade. - Consulting::: Ease of use is ignored, as if it's too easy people won't need consultants. - Sponsoring Goals::: Software is almost held at ransom, until goals are reached. The best way to help open-source software is to donat…

> - Consulting::: Ease of use is ignored, as if it's too easy people won't need consultants. Some problems can only be made so easy. Some problems require custom work. Sometimes you need paid support not because the product is low-quality but because you need to know that you can call someone at 3am because your service is down. There are lots of reasons to have consulting. > - Sponsoring Goals::: Software is almost…

From my (admittedly) limited experience, paid support isn't consulting.

Paid support surely is, as you say, about calling someone at 3am and having them look into an incident.

From my experience, that's not about helping you get the most out of the product, and a hand in tailoring it to your needs - that's the consulting part, and is usually paid for separately (and at much higher rates).

Re: Migrating Dropbox from Nginx to Envoy

#110

Post by mholt »

eric4smith wrote: post #104

It's interesting almost no web server provides an easy way to deal with multi-tenant multi-domain architectures in a good way that includes automatic SSL. Caddy is the closest, but still not near enough. There is this small segment of the market that we operate in that requires thousands of TLS connected domains to be hosted behind a dynamic backend. It's services like Tumblr, Wordpress.com, or any other hosting serv…

Several companies use Caddy for exactly this purpose. Fathom Analytics for example uses it for their custom domains feature. Caddy can even reactively provision certs during TLS handshakes. It's a native feature. Why does it require lots of workarounds?
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