Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#41

Post by keiferski » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 5:42 PM UTC

orijing wrote: post #36

jseliger wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, vast majority of the kids want to become firefighters or cops. . . . It's probably hard to tell the cause from the effect. I think it's easy: jobs as scientists in the U.S. suck relative to other jobs. See here: http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16... ? for more. Basically, if you have the chops to get a job in science, you're probably better off doing something else (like med schoo…

> I think it's easy: jobs as scientists in the U.S. suck relative to other jobs. Consider that firefighters or cops get paid reasonably well; effectively can't be fired after a short probationary period unless they do something incredibly egregious because they're protected by unions; have jobs that demand physical activity, so they aren't just sitting in front of a screen all day; and, in the case of firefighters, h…

But do you think the "vast majority of kids" take that as their main reason?

No, but many adults take it as their main reason, which leads to more potential "role-models" becoming police officers/fire fighters, which leads to more kids wanting to be like these particular role models. Example: kid grows up admiring his uncle the fireman, who has nice things (always employed) and makes a difference in his community. His uncle might have simply taken the job because of the benefits mentioned in the grandparent post.

Kids don't necessarily need to know the labor benefits of a job, but (I think) they know the types of people that take these jobs, and want to be like them. Of course, it doesn't mean that they'll actually become firemen, but we're talking about the "what do you want to be when you grow up" question, not necessarily what they end up doing.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#42

Post by alextp » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 5:43 PM UTC

karolisd wrote: post #18

kleiba wrote: post #12

I thought about the same question before, or in particular the social prestige of computer scientists. My best shot is: because you cannot make cool TV shows about computer scientists. There are lots of shows in which specific professions come across as cool - doctors, cops, lawyers (of all things)... on the other hand, whenever a computer scientist is portrayed in a show or a movie, what you get is the stereotypical…

Doctors, cops, and lawyers interact with other people in interesting ways. Scientists and engineers generally interact with machines in interesting way. Much more difficult to make a story about that.

Except science and engineering is as much about people as it is about machine. Look at the most succcessful scientists and engineers: a lot of what they accomplished they owe to the other people who collaborated and worked with them. The amount of politics and interaction that goes in the higher levels of these professions is also something that can't be ignored.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#43

Post by keiferski » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 5:49 PM UTC

gamble wrote: post #38

jseliger wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, vast majority of the kids want to become firefighters or cops. . . . It's probably hard to tell the cause from the effect. I think it's easy: jobs as scientists in the U.S. suck relative to other jobs. See here: http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16... ? for more. Basically, if you have the chops to get a job in science, you're probably better off doing something else (like med schoo…

It may depend on the area, but becoming a firefighter is unbelievably difficult these days. The competition is very intense. My brother spent close to ten years applying to every firefighting job he could find. He has a four-year degree, a diploma from fire-fighting school, years of experience as a private firefighter on a military base and as an EMT, and he's a competitive bodybuilder. He finally gave up this year a…

Very, very true. A friend of mine is considering the military, largely so he gets more experience and a better shot at a firefighting job.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#44

Post by Detrus » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 5:51 PM UTC

known wrote: post #25

Study Suggests U.S. Could Use Fewer, Not More Science Students http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2009/10/study-argu...

This is a crucial point. "More is better" is a naive notion, but it's easier to promote than "quantity over quality."

When mathematicians get jobs in Wall Street by the thousands, there are either too many mathematicians churned out by the education system, too few problems or both. They're not getting those jobs to work on theories about complex systems like a few physicists did in the 1980's. The new generation is there to get respectable wages.

The ending is gold:

"claims of shortage are "often issued by parties of interest" such as employer associations. In the past, some U.S. businesses have been accused of using the shortage argument to justify outsourcing and hiring of foreign workers.

Susan Traiman of the Business Roundtable criticizes the new study, saying that it gives an illusion of a robust supply because it bundles all STEM fields together. There may be an oversupply in the life sciences and social sciences, she argues, but there is no question that there are shortages in engineering and the physical sciences. The findings "are not going to make us go back and re-examine everything we've been been calling for," she says."

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#45

Post by presidenttrex » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 5:56 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #24

dwc wrote: post #2

Two books I've recently read are The Age of American Unreason by Jacoby [1] and Unscientific America by Mooney & Kirschenbaum [2]. Both are worth reading, but Jacoby gives a deeper and more thoughtful analysis and spends considerable time on historical roots and trends. This topic is tied heavily to politics, and I hesitate to get into that here. I will say this: science is about exploring, like math is about explori…

We have a government that generally believes we can legislate our problems away and that most people are incapable of taking care of themselves. When you start from that premise, everything that you do "for the good of society" or "because it's fair" ends up stepping on someone, usually those closer to the top. Alternatively, when you have leadership coming from fields where reason and making things better by creatin…

Hoover was our only engineer president... and I wouldn't exactly cite him as an excellent example of presidential leadership.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#46

Post by OasisG » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 6:04 PM UTC

kleiba wrote: post #12

I thought about the same question before, or in particular the social prestige of computer scientists. My best shot is: because you cannot make cool TV shows about computer scientists. There are lots of shows in which specific professions come across as cool - doctors, cops, lawyers (of all things)... on the other hand, whenever a computer scientist is portrayed in a show or a movie, what you get is the stereotypical…

My best shot is: because you cannot make cool TV shows about computer scientists

It's not that you CAN'T make shows like this, it's that producers/writers project their own stereotypes into figuring out what shows will work or not. Thus, the cycle continues. It's sad when hackers can't even imagine ways to make it look cool though..

Japanese Dramas can be cheesy by American standards but I liked this one as an example:

http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Bloody_Monday After a biological terrorist attack kills off the population of a Russian town; Japan's Public Safety Special Third unit, code name THIRD-i, believes that the terrorist organization responsible plans to unleash the same virus known as Bloody X into Tokyo. Subsequently, THIRD-i recruits the help of genius hacker Takagi Fujimaru to find out what happened in the Russia. However, as Fujimaru becomes involved, he soon finds out that he is in over his head and that the terrorist groups influence reaches not only his school but even the police. Fujimaru must now rely on his skill as a hacker to unravel the organizations sinister plot and find out the truth behind "Bloody Monday."

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#47

Post by jrspruitt » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 6:07 PM UTC

kleiba wrote: post #12

I thought about the same question before, or in particular the social prestige of computer scientists. My best shot is: because you cannot make cool TV shows about computer scientists. There are lots of shows in which specific professions come across as cool - doctors, cops, lawyers (of all things)... on the other hand, whenever a computer scientist is portrayed in a show or a movie, what you get is the stereotypical…

This is exactly what I was thinking, while reading through the comments, the phrase "Neeerds!" kept playing in my head from the Revenge of the Nerds movie. The American culture has not been favorable to intellectuals socially, at least in my life time, 36 years. I believe most people tend to gravitate to what is socially acceptable. Also there is a sense I get from the political media, that intellectuals are to be demonized. Intellectuals generally seem to speak of complex problems, with complex solutions. Which are a hard sell in a form that seems to live off the 30 second sound clip, not to mention any ideological conflicts. And then there is the part where being an intellectual is hard work, it takes dedication, sometimes a complete lifestyle to gain, and maintain. Something that you'd have to put down the remote control, get off the sofa and go get. Its an up hill battle, TV, which is the most powerful form of dispersing to the people, what their culture is and thus, what they should be doing, to maintain their social status, is easy to do, more so than learning about a topic. Also the people making it, want to do what ever it takes, to make sure you keep watching instead. Then the people through ratings, tell the producers what they want to watch. So it is rather easy for this process to spiral out of control. The race to the bottom if you will. The internet has changed things a bit, it brought fame and glory to some smart people, the innovators and the builders, but I would still wager the vast majority is still tied up in social networking. Recently getting a twitter account I've noticed whats on TV tonight, seems to trend quite often.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#48

Post by caseysoftware » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 6:13 PM UTC

juiceandjuice wrote: post #40

caseysoftware wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a government that generally believes we can legislate our problems away and that most people are incapable of taking care of themselves. When you start from that premise, everything that you do "for the good of society" or "because it's fair" ends up stepping on someone, usually those closer to the top. Alternatively, when you have leadership coming from fields where reason and making things better by creatin…

Steven Chu?

It makes sense that Energy Secretaries would have a scientific background.. but then when you look into the past 6 or so, Chu and Bodman are the only ones.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secretary_of_Ener...

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#49

Post by caseysoftware » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 6:14 PM UTC

presidenttrex wrote: post #45

caseysoftware wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a government that generally believes we can legislate our problems away and that most people are incapable of taking care of themselves. When you start from that premise, everything that you do "for the good of society" or "because it's fair" ends up stepping on someone, usually those closer to the top. Alternatively, when you have leadership coming from fields where reason and making things better by creatin…

Hoover was our only engineer president... and I wouldn't exactly cite him as an excellent example of presidential leadership.

I didn't say that he was a good example.. just noting that it's been 80 years since any engineer, scientist, etc was in the role. No wonder they're disconnected.

Re: Why did the social prestige of science and engineering decline in the US?

#50

Post by ricarr » Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 6:14 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #24

dwc wrote: post #2

Two books I've recently read are The Age of American Unreason by Jacoby [1] and Unscientific America by Mooney & Kirschenbaum [2]. Both are worth reading, but Jacoby gives a deeper and more thoughtful analysis and spends considerable time on historical roots and trends. This topic is tied heavily to politics, and I hesitate to get into that here. I will say this: science is about exploring, like math is about explori…

We have a government that generally believes we can legislate our problems away and that most people are incapable of taking care of themselves. When you start from that premise, everything that you do "for the good of society" or "because it's fair" ends up stepping on someone, usually those closer to the top. Alternatively, when you have leadership coming from fields where reason and making things better by creatin…

Asian (western educated) engineers have committed some of the worst atrocities in Asia. Khmer Rouge, et al.

In Iran, the honorific "Mohandes" (Engineer), "Doktor" (MD or PhD), and the ultimate, Doctor Mohandes (PhD in technical fields) were frequently applied as sign of respect. Of course, this was during the Shah's reign. He and his father were single handedly responsible for injecting this societal respect for the intellectual class, and in fact, creating a middle class in Iran.

(A subset of the same class duly became communists -- apparently they offer this course for all Asian engineers in Europe and America -- and substantially, and one can fairly say stupidly, contributed to the demise of the regime; most are now either dead/executed/newly-Fervent-Muslim or abroad.)