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Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

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Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#261

"Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos said Wednesday he can't guarantee employees have never used sales data from individual third-party sellers to develop the company's own products" There's no way he could make that guarantee. How can you prove a negative? The best Amazon can do is have policies, logs and access controls and punish employees if they break those policies. And Bezos committed to doing that.

Shouldn't there also be access control security measures in place that prevent this kind of thing.

E.G., not just anyone can look at seller data, have to have a ticket with some IT group to get limited access to a specific seller's data with a specific reason stated for the access etc.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather that them saying "no" didn't mean they were perjuring themselves

You think anyone of any company that employs more than a small handful of people can guarantee that a company policy has never been broken? I don't see how you can guarantee this without also scrutinizing and monitoring employees to a level that would feel incredibly invasive.

invasive in the same way as employees looking at customer data is invasive?

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#263
post #261

"Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos said Wednesday he can't guarantee employees have never used sales data from individual third-party sellers to develop the company's own products" There's no way he could make that guarantee. How can you prove a negative? The best Amazon can do is have policies, logs and access controls and punish employees if they break those policies. And Bezos committed to doing that.

Shouldn't there also be access control security measures in place that prevent this kind of thing. E.G., not just anyone can look at seller data, have to have a ticket with some IT group to get limited access to a specific seller's data with a specific reason stated for the access etc.

So what if you made up a reason and completed the process as required?

My point being - regardless of access control the people that are allowed to actually have the data could still leak it in the end.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the landlord can run the restaurant as profitably as a restaurant operator could, then either the landlord or the restaurant operator was in the wrong business before. Property management and restaurant management are very different businesses that require very different skills, and it's pretty rare to be able to do both very well, which is why landlords normally lease the space to professional restaurateurs. "Ama…

> "Amazon took my idea and did the same thing at lower cost" This isn't always the case, as many merchants have pointed it out. Sometimes (I'm sure not all the time), it's more "Amazon took my idea, and all the validation work I did in order to develop and prove it and build a market for it, and is selling it below cost in order to force everyone else out of the market" I'm not passing judgement on whether that is ok…

I'm not aware of any evidence that Amazon sells stuff below cost.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#265

"Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos said Wednesday he can't guarantee employees have never used sales data from individual third-party sellers to develop the company's own products" There's no way he could make that guarantee. How can you prove a negative? The best Amazon can do is have policies, logs and access controls and punish employees if they break those policies. And Bezos committed to doing that.

Regardless. If he is not capable of guaranteeing this, then clearly Amazon is too big and complex to follow the law. If a person is incapable of following the law by controlling their own actions, we put them in a psychiatric asylum. If a corporation is incapable of following the law by controlling their own actions, what should be done with them? Clearly it would be unjust to let them continue. It's already bad enou…

Under that definition the US is an open air insane aslyum because nobody knows all of the vast body of laws they are incapable of following them. Meanwhile abolishing all laws would make Hinkley perfectly sane. To be perfectly frank using laws as a basis for sanity isn't a sane concept in the first place.

Besides while they are pissy about accessing the data it isn't /against the law/ per se. A mom and pop scale website doing the same thing wouldn't even be cared about as anti-competive. It isn't like price fixing where it is a crime in itself.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Search online for "trust amazon poll" and look at the results. People appear to have an overwhelmingly favorable opinion of Amazon. For example, look at The Verge Tech Survey 2020. 91% of those surveyed had a favorable opinion of the company, and 70% felt they had a positive impact on society. Most of the other polls have similar results.

That’s consumer trust, which is certainly high. I’d be interested in how much companies trust amazon, that number might be very different. Both groups can have wildly different experiences with the same company, and there are a lot more consumers than there are companies ready to sell on amazon. The original question here was not “does amazon provide a bad service to consumers”, but rather “does amazon abuse their da…

Company trust doesn't mean all that much given conflict of interest. Technically you can translate any antitrust claim regardless of merit as "Competitors say 'main rival's success unfair, should be punished'".

Realpolitik of sorts often matters far more than any trust at the company level - does going on your own or letting someone else take a cut pay off better? Would they get massively punished if they failed to carry through and burned your company?

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#267
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same way we legislate privacy ? Our shopping data should be just as anonymous as browsing and PII perhaps more so . This is not much different from GDPR type regulation ?. How do we make companies follow it is different issue altogether . First step is the make liability exposure high for violating (like COPA ?) and provide consumes right to access what they have on you. There is no technical way privacy of this or a…

Individual shopping data from the consumer to the retailer. That should be PII and treated like any other sensitive data. Aggregate data on what consumers bought from the retailer. This is the retailer's data. Individual sales data from sellers of the retailer's platform. This should be PII and treated like any other sensitive data. Aggregate data on what consumers bought from all sellers on the retailer's platform.…

If retailer is just a retailer , aggregate sales data is theirs to do as pleased . If they are also sellers it is problem, if we cannot stop them collecting or using , then all sellers must have access to the same information.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#268
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a game where the politicians are in charge, subpoenaing the businessmen to come answer their questions, under their rules, at penalty of perjury. >Of course the businessmen do their best to present their side, but let's not pretend it's an even playing field. Your response is odd. The fact perjury is a possible outcome if a knowingly misleading answer is given doesn't change the equation of the fundamental soci…

> Congresspeople are not fishing for soundbites. They have a legitimate interest in knowing what are the current practices being engaged in by major economic players. They need information pertinent to building consensus amongst their numbers to fulfill legislative mandate. I don't completely disagree; political subcommittees do tend to be more practical than politics at large. But the committee a hostile environment…

>But the committee a hostile environment for the people bought before it; if the politicians just wanted information they'd do it in writing or chat to Zuckerberg at a party or something.

Generally speaking, committee's don't happen if there is no reason to believe that any of the alternate means you brought up as examples would be sufficient to resolve the problem. In fact, many of those may have already been addressed or attempted to unsatisfactory result. The legislature has organized and tasked the committee with this investigation as an expression of the "Will of the People" to get to the bottom of business of redressing the grievances of the Constituency, and building policy on the basis of the facts collected. In Facebook's case, largely prompted by not adhering to a previously unnecessary to enumerate social norm, which many people have begun to become concerned with Facebook's primary business model being reliant, and the consequent leveraging of advantaged position via network effect exploitation to prevent competition.

As a corporate citizen of the United States, there is no adversity here. You're in this country, granted legitimacy by the authority of our institutions. If the political apparatus taps you on the shoulder and deems it necessary to look into the facts of what you're doing, nothing at all should change about what you're doing or the answers you give. That behavior of manipulating the response you give in response to interrogation by Congress is analogous to anti-debugger code; obfuscation being an act of perjury. This is fact finding and policy building by duly elected representatives. There should be no adversity. No legitimacy or illusion of legitimate competition acknowledged.

This is humanscale debugging by an authority mechanism implemented by a distributed decision making and consensus engine in the form of a Congress of elected representatives. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't accept the right of a Corporation or an Executive to evade or deceive official legislative apparata. The called already has going in their favor that a great deal of the population are highly resistant to meaningless change, and that there needs to be a non-trivial consensus for change.

Now I fully acknowledge we may have gotten away from the ideal of how things should work, and that when you're dealing with human beings, the level of nuance and communications overloading associated with a state bearing comment skyrockets; but that still does not to me justify lying by omission or outright to your legislature or it's representatives, or intentionally wasting their time for your gain or to intentionally frustrate policy making. If you can't be honest to the collective proxy of $the_rest_of_the_nation, you've got your priorities all sorts of misaligned, and if you're feeling that threatened by the experience, maybe, just maybe, it's finally coming back in unequivocal terms that something needs to fundamentally change about your operational model. I also acknowledge that making the determination of what is "frustrating policy making" and what is just best effort is left fuzzy, and in that fuzziness creates a dangerous policy tool to be abused. I make no claims or suggestion to what should or shouldn't be done in the event thereof, or what the determination that obstruction of policy making has occurred looks like. I'm only pointing out that if you accept as legitimate "defensive legislative perception management" you've undermined the status of the legislature from "wielders of the power of the collective social apparatus, and the authority and access to privileged information that comes with it" to "For sale: invest in a full time employee to haunt enough representatives, and you too can have a law."

There is no illegitimacy in any question being asked. Axiomatically, this is basically people with as close to societal root access as you can get trying to build a realistic representation of the socio-governmental system in order to plot a reasonable course to satisfy $rest_of_the_country.

TL;DR: So long as everything is being done by the book; there should be no self-preservation or overt attempts at manipulation being acceptable. Only as accurate of a rendering of facts as possible, and where a subjective question is asked, a candid answer provided.

For it to be any other way reeks to me of dysfunction, and an overt admission of a lack of integrity, and standing in opposition to the very thing that grants you the legitimacy and capability to live in the manner you desire.

From a social and civic point of view, it isn't and shouldn't be a contest. Just a mechanism at work.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

eCommerce, though, only accounted for 16% of all 2019's US retail sales. [0] So, Walmart ought to get rid of all these private brands [1] I take it? [0] https://www.digitalcommerce360.com/article/e-commerce-sales-... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Walmart_brands

Right not a bad point, but I was making the comparison to demonstrate Amazon's scale within ecommerce... not to compare the volume of sales across all commerce. I personally think the distinction matters, but maybe I'm wrong.

The other issue with your distinction is that all these brick-and-motor retailers also have online eCommerce services where shopping carts, logging data, and third party vendors are involved in improving the experience - and let me tell you, those guys are using the data. Probably not nearly as well as Amazon uses theirs, but they're still trying as best they can.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies regularly use this trick to get away with crimes. They might explicitly forbid something illegal, not setup the actual guard rails that would prevent it, and then give employees every single possible incentive to break the rules. The moment they're caught they can act shocked, shocked, to discover that gambling was going on in this establishment, and then throw the line level workers under the bus. This is…

Any large organization (that includes government organizations) is going to have some level of crime in it. "Guaranteeing" there isn't any hanky-panky going on somewhere in it is an absurd requirement.

Of course, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that some organizations explicitly create the incentive for criminal or unethical behavior, fail to setup the safeguards to prevent it, and then use the line level workers as scapegoats if they get caught.

This is significantly different than a good faith organization having some members engage in criminal behavior.

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