The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#171

Post by wwwwewwww » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 9:05 AM UTC

cambalache wrote: post #19

wwwwewwww wrote: post #13

"Red Plenty" is a "historical fiction" novel that is an easy read and deals with this subject. Glushkov is the main character.

It's extremely anti-soviet, almost propagandistically so. It wouldnt be out of place as a work made at the request of Voice of America, although the author is an Englishman.

Honestly curious what you mean by anti-Soviet.

I don't feel being anti-Soviet is bad, unless it means misleading people to serve your goals (as the comparison to Voice of America and by extension to propaganda implies).

I guess you mean some aspects of Soviet Union were mischaracterized, or presented in a more negative way then they should have been.

Did you feel that's what the book did? I'm curious what part?

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#172

Post by mantas » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 9:16 AM UTC

myth_drannon wrote: post #115

andi999 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a while ago that in communist society there is usually a shortage of everything including labor (that also why females were encouraged to work soon after giving birth)

Nope, women were given a generous 3 years off work after birth. In general since all work was equally paid (sort of) and you could just choose your profession, it's possibly harder, more dangerous jobs had issues with filling up positions and you couldn't solve it in a capitalistic way of just paying more (or increasing immigration for cheap, slave labour). Too many people wanted to be writers, artists, etc.. and sin…

More dangerous and less comfy jobs were paid much more and/or given extra benefits.

Apartments queues were much shorter in small purpose-built industrial towns in the middle of nowhere

Dangerous jobs in bumfucknowhere (far north etc) were paid $$$$$

One couldn't be a writer or artist without attending university. And spots at university were limited. State needs X writers or artists in 5 years so that's how many spots are available this year. On top of that, being jobless was a crime. So you couldn't just pursue artsy stuff and leech off society either.

Same for the rest of the labour market. Central planning wants to kickstart XYZ factory in 5 years? Suddenly related universities get spots in XYZ next fall. You want to do ABC instead? Tough luck. Either study XYZ or do some unskilled job for years till few spots in ABC become available.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#173

Post by mantas » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 9:20 AM UTC

ulzeraj wrote: post #59

Koshkin wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No problem there: an efficient planned economy would have no trouble whatsoever also planning for bullshit jobs, efficiently. Incidentally, does not look like bullshit jobs were specific to the USSR, they are indeed everywhere .

I fail to see how magic advanced computer power would solve the problem of economic calculation in the socialist commonwealth. Without prices there is no efficient distribution of resources.

Prices did exist in USSR all the way till it eventually failed. But prices, just like currency exchange rate or salaries, had little connection to actual costs. Black markets meanwhile...

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#174

Post by ulzeraj » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 10:06 AM UTC

mantas wrote: post #173

ulzeraj wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how magic advanced computer power would solve the problem of economic calculation in the socialist commonwealth. Without prices there is no efficient distribution of resources.

Prices did exist in USSR all the way till it eventually failed. But prices, just like currency exchange rate or salaries, had little connection to actual costs. Black markets meanwhile...

Apparently those prices were determined mainly by bureaucratic means. Prices encapsulate production costs and demand for a product therefore in a socialist commonwealth bureaucrats and even supercomputers would have to base production on market information using data from capitalist era.

By the fall of the SSSR the black market of illegally imported goods constituted a huge chunk of the soviet economy.

Also I find intriguing how I got downvoted just by questioning. Makes you wonder how wisely those mod powers are being used.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#175

Post by mempko » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 1:26 PM UTC

myth_drannon wrote: post #2

So a bit like a capitalist entrepreneur who needs to have a brilliant idea and be a great salesman, the scientists in USSR had to have a cunning social skills to push their ideas through layers of un-interested bureaucracy. A Sisyphian task that would just cause them to become disengaged. That's how that society got its alcoholics, poetry evenings and other sublimation hobbies.

> cunning social skills to push their ideas through layers of un-interested bureaucracy

Seems like corporate America to me...

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#176

Post by toyg » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

thrwway34 wrote: post #159

toyg wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget keeping spies at bay. Berlin was a notorious hotbed of espionage, for obvious reasons, and East German authorities had already enough trouble controlling the existing checkpoints without having to add new ones.

You really think only East Germans had issues with espionage?

As the parent comment referred to the Geisterbahnhöfe as in East Berlin, it stands to reason that they were patrolled by East German guards, hence discussing the reasons for East Germans to keep them closed.

(As an aside, why do you feel the need to be so confrontational...?)

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#177

Post by Eugr » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

nwallin wrote: post #110

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is dated 1996. How does it have an IPhone reference?

Wrong iPhone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linksys_iPhone

I think I still have one somewhere. I believe it was Cisco branded though.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#178

Post by wwwwewwww » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

thodin wrote: post #151

drran wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good that it antisoviet, isn't? Soviet Union was responsible for millions of deaths. In Soviet Union, you will be prosecuted as American spy just because you have account on HN.

Not really. In Soviet Union it was possible to have connection to the outside world only in case you were completely trusted (checked by KGB many times). No one was prosecuted in SU for unauthorized access to western computer resources because they had not a single chance to get it without state permission.

If we are talking about the same time period as the book (which opens up in the 30's, I believe) then you would absolutely be persecuted for having contacts with the West. And by contact, it could be something as innocuous as you were happened to a tailor who worked on diplomat's clothing.

The law was written to make it illegal to be suspected of counter-revolutionary activities. So it's the burden is not to prove the crime, just to prove the suspicion of a crime.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#179

Post by mantas » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

ulzeraj wrote: post #174

mantas wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prices did exist in USSR all the way till it eventually failed. But prices, just like currency exchange rate or salaries, had little connection to actual costs. Black markets meanwhile...

Apparently those prices were determined mainly by bureaucratic means. Prices encapsulate production costs and demand for a product therefore in a socialist commonwealth bureaucrats and even supercomputers would have to base production on market information using data from capitalist era. By the fall of the SSSR the black market of illegally imported goods constituted a huge chunk of the soviet economy. Also I find in…

Why would bureaucrats and/or supercomputers would have to base it on market information? They could keep bending prices as they see fit.

By the fall of USSR, big chunks of black market were becoming legal :) Black market was a massive portion of economy throughout USSR existence though.

Some people still buy old good CCCP propaganda. And even questioning fairy tale propaganda is bad for those people.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#180

Post by wwwwewwww » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

cambalache wrote: post #19

wwwwewwww wrote: post #13

"Red Plenty" is a "historical fiction" novel that is an easy read and deals with this subject. Glushkov is the main character.

It's extremely anti-soviet, almost propagandistically so. It wouldnt be out of place as a work made at the request of Voice of America, although the author is an Englishman.

The book takes place during Stalin era, yet hardly mentions Stalinist atrocities.

It is as if someone wrote an anti-US book that takes place in antibellum South and never mention slavery.

I'm not saying that every book set in a certain time period must delve into the worst parts of that period, but it could hardly be called anti-that country if it doesn't.