Live data from Hacker News

A new funding model for open source software

vriad.com

121–130 of 184 posts

Re: A new funding model for open source software

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here - 100% agree on all fronts! I was dancing around this conclusion but it really does need to be GitHub. And I agree people would be fine paying their own fees if it came to that. Also, in that case, if someone is donating a non-trivial amount, they're incentivized to fund their wallet with a cheaper payment method like an ACH transfer.

Can I be fair & frank? Your article does raise a few great points... about Github specifically. But not about funding sustainable OSS development in general. Open source also is not a business model. It's a principle that relates to intellectual rights and copyright: the author explicitly stating that they won't exercise their rights as to what others do with their work, provided then that others share any modificati…

I'm cognizant that I'm replying to someone named CaptArmchair. Based on your handle, I say: well-named.

Look, I'm sure you remember the heartbleed scenario a few years back... the moment when we all realized that the human behind one of the most critical pieces of our infrastructure stack was a slave to his sense of responsibility, but he lacked charisma and hustle and social presence such that he wasn't able to keep it together. His mental and emotional health were sorely suffering. Once people realized what was happening, the plate got passed around and from what I understand, things are a lot better now, for that one guy on that one project. Maybe it's wrong to over-focus on one guy, but his example is top of mind as I say the following:

You could not write the above if you weren't in a position of being privileged to do so. You can wax poetic about how writing free software is an expression of the divine all you want, but meanwhile the entire world is reconfiguring itself around software and a lot of those folks are going to need a source of income even if you're already doing well enough that you don't care to push the issue.

Essentially: you are not factoring in the way the world is changing. Most people building software and publishing it on Github, by numbers, are people who are using their Github profile as a resume. It's not been about RMS and ESR for a long time.

It's cool if you don't need to pay the bills, but don't demonize people who are hoping all of this energy invested in learning to code need to eat.

Re: A new funding model for open source software

#122

If the kind of open source you mention were actually valuable, there would be a market for it. You make a common mistake many people make when trying to calculate value: it has nothing to do with how much something is used, it has to do with the incentives for those creating it. People do not casually write open source to make money (unless sponsored by a company). They do it for the recognition and for vanity, and I…

> People do not casually write open source to make money (unless sponsored by a company). They do it for the recognition and for vanity.

1. I would like to make a little bit of money from my open source projects. I like money. But if no money comes ... that's okay too. It won't stop me coding for fun.

2. I write open source code because I enjoy the freedom to work on what interests me, and I can devote some time to it. I expect many developers would like to contribute to open source but can't; they have to put their time and effort into other areas of their life.

People are weird. They often do stuff without the need for an incentive to do it. Code up a pet project, write poetry or stories in their diaries, build an entire constructed world that nobody else will ever be interested in - all just for the fun of it.

Re: A new funding model for open source software

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wouldn't prevent you sending cash to the developer in an envelope, just like Github existing doesn't prevent you hosting your project elsewhere

To send someone money I'd have to know their address (not viable). If they only accept money through GitHub sponsorship, then I'm prevented from donating in any other way. Which option do we (content creators) endorse? We definitely need to transition to better funding model. Seeking out donations and sponsorships is frustrating and that time could be better spent. GitHub Sponsors managed to solve most problems on te…

> To send someone money I'd have to know their address

You could just ask them? I recently donated to an OSS project for which the maintainer didn't publish any means of accepting donations - I simply asked and he sent his PayPal address.

Another option would be for maintainers to publish a Bitcoin address in their profile - but again, if not already present, just ask.

Re: A new funding model for open source software

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we delegate complete control over open source financing channel to Microsoft, because it's most conveniant option? Sounds a bit insane. I do use both GitHub and its Sponsors feature, but I'm still hoping for open source community to come to consensus to use a service from non-profit organization like Mozilla or EFF.

Friend, you are going to be waiting for a very, very long time. In the meantime, every day OSS project maintainers get burned out, depressed, and often called mean names and there is no viable mechanism for them to get paid for it. CodeFund shut down, Flattr is not a significant player - I first heard of it in this thread. Frankly, the network effects of GH make them the only viable place for this to happen in the me…

I agree with all your points, but I'm still optimistic.

The biggest two issues are that anything related to finances is heavily regulated, and that third-party services integrated into repositories/blogs/posts create lot of friction for users. It should come down to 1 button: donate fixed amount immediately. It's easy to press that button few times, or to press the button every time you update to new version. Simple is good.

One way around regulation would be for each online service to have a independent credit system. Like karma, but you can also spend it to reward others. Communities would reward each other for creating content. Independent entities could offer to exchange your GitHub credits to Reddit credits. Those entities could also handle exchange to and from actual money, with credit card fees and necessary financial regulation isolated to just those entities. Let the market regulate itself.

Re: A new funding model for open source software

#125

I would love something like this + automatically adding all the NPM packages I use to the pool (or similar for Cargo, PIP etc). So that I don't have to manually find the packages, and can easily contribute to everyone who's code I'm using.

What about transitive packages? With NPM in particular, I have a feeling that donations would be diluted to the point of being meaningless.

Re: A new funding model for open source software

#126
I guess I'm old. GOML!

This doesn't sound like a way for open source projects to get money to me. It sounds like a way to get thousands and thousands of bad developers to spam me to support their tiny open source no effort project. For them to fork someone else's project and ask for money for their fork. etc...

Note, a similar thing already happens on patreon where people ask for support for their piracy activities. They run a blogspot blog with pirated movies/anime/porn and expect you to sign up to support them on patreon for helping you pirate stuff.

Basically the easier you make it collect money from random people the stronger the incentive is for bad actors to try to get some of it. I don't have a solution but in my defense I do sponsor 3 open source projects at $!00 a month each. But I'm sure my money is going to people/teams who are really dedicated to their project and not just one hoping for some coffee money for their tiny thing.

Re: A new funding model for open source software

#127

I think that this essay is fundamentally brilliant, but doesn't come out and yell the self-evident truth: the ONLY way this ever takes off is if Github does it. And man, do I ever hope that they do. There's no other entity in the ecosystem that even approaches the role Github plays, with all due respect to Gitlab and the rest of the also-rans. It'd be wonderful if they did the same thing, but in the end, they are goi…

The only thing really keeping me on GitHub is stars. I have a fundamental objection to entrusting open source to Microsoft.

If gitlab implemented this feature Id probably move tomorrow.

Re: A new funding model for open source software

#129
post #5
post #4

> Existing open source funding models don't work for small projects. Is this true? It seems to me that open source small projects flourish and continue to grow [0]. Although, oddly, I can’t find a simple chart of python or npm packages added over time, I expect it is. Since the article is based on a seemingly false premise, it’s hard to consider the rest of the article. [0] https://octoverse.github.com/

That page argues (convincingly!) that open source is growing faster and faster in terms of contributors, projects, commits, etc. This is definitely the case, despite the fact that the funding problem is unsolved. But who knows how much faster OSS would be growing if it was solved?

I think there are challenges with how to make money from open source projects, but that is very different than “ Existing open source funding models don't work for small projects.”

I think the fundamental funding model seems to work well based on the number and rate of growth in small projects- philanthropy. The vast majority of small projects don’t require funding because their authors donate their time and code produced.

This seems to work really well based on how many people do it.

Perhaps more would do it if there was funding, perhaps less. We do have a large commercial software industry and they have a pretty figured out model.

Re: A new funding model for open source software

#130
post #2

OP here. I'd love to see something like this exist. Let me know if it does already, or if someone is trying, and I'll link it below. EDIT: This model is used by Flattr [0]. Unfortunately Flattr isn't targeted at open-source software; an OSS-specific approach (ideally implemented by a highly visible, established player) is (probably) necessary for something like this to reach its potential. [0] https://flattr.com/

Hi, I'm one of the Snowdrift.coop cofounders.

We actually planned on a wallet approach early on, and still consider it the superior option in many ways Not all), but we're launching with a monthly charge model because holding money is more complicated legally. To avoid higher fees for microtransactions, we're delaying donations until they total high enough to keep fees below 10%, then doing one charge for several months (ie, charging in arrears).

You don't need a wallet approach to do one-click, though. Just the ability to do many:many charges, which several payment platforms support (usually under "services for ecommerce platforms", like Stripe connect, if I'm remembering the name correctly). That lets you send one bill to each patron that totals their donations to projects, and one paycheck to each project, that totals all the individual donations from various patrons, avoiding a fee per patron-project-month combination.

---

Broadly, we don't agree that friction is the core barrier to donations (although lower friction certainly helps!). Instead, we think the barrier is people's reluctance to be the first to donate. Colloquially: people would pitch in if they knew it would lead to enough funding to be useful (ie, actually pay full time developer salaries), but nobody wants to be the chump wasting their money on 2 minutes of developer time per month (which will really be 0 minutes per month, because you can't hire 0.01% of a developer). That's why crowdmatching donations start small and grow as more people support the same project as you.

Coming back to the article, I'd argue that both big and small projects alike have trouble soliciting donations from individuals (for the reason above). The difference is, large infrastructure projects can solicit funding from large companies that depend on them. These companies can donate enough money to single-handedly make a difference, so there's no coordination problem. Consider LibreOffice: they're a large project, and their potential audience is even larger. But, their primary benefactors are end users, and they struggle to make ends meet.

Snowdrift.coop won't address the small-project funding issue right away, since in order to actually get launched some time this decade we're restricting our initial scope to large projects with the potential to really change the software landscape if they were well funded -- but we do want to expand our focus later, both to smaller projects and areas outside of software, like journalism, music, and research, which suffer from similar coordination problems.

Post reply on HN