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When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

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Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#541

Post by rattray »

rattray wrote: post #461
hn_check wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"which I think adds weight to the argument that is unfair behaviour by Apple" Apple takes back from the developer exactly what they gave the developer. This has been verified by a number of people, and this submission is just farcically wrong. How is this nonsense front page on HN? Is this community this clueless?

See this comment elsewhere on the thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23992485 If you charge $10, you get paid $7, and if the customer refunds, Apple removes $10 from your account – you'll be $3 worse off than if the customer never purchased anything.

Actually, elsewhere on the thread, a few other folks note that this behavior did not occur for them, even though the terms allow it.

Unclear whether it happened in this case.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#542

Post by celticninja »

mr_toad wrote: post #537
dhsysusbsjsi wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact this tweet is so believable says something about how poorly Apple has been treating its developers the last decade.

Or it just says something about confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias is usually as a result of previous behaviour allowing us to make assumptions about how something would respond/act. Confirmation bias in this situation is because it sounds in line with how Apple operate elsewhere.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#543

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

rattray wrote: post #541
rattray wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See this comment elsewhere on the thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23992485 If you charge $10, you get paid $7, and if the customer refunds, Apple removes $10 from your account – you'll be $3 worse off than if the customer never purchased anything.

Actually, elsewhere on the thread, a few other folks note that this behavior did not occur for them, even though the terms allow it. Unclear whether it happened in this case.

I'm the guy that posted that excerpt from the agreement. I was actually shocked that no one else had, as there are millions of copies of it out there.

But I do appreciate the anecdotal stories from folks that actually processed refunds.

Apple is entitled to yank the extra 30%, but it seems that they don't do it. That's not uncommon. Lawyers will often add stuff to contracts that they don't intend to enforce, to give them leverage and cover, in unique situations.

I have never had to process a refund, so I don't know.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#544

Post by nyuszika7h »

efreak wrote: post #299
snazz wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad that Apple can't remotely delete apps from my device. It would be somewhat dystopic if they had that capability.

There's more than one way to do this. If the purchase is refunded on the device, the app can be uninstalled at the same time; this is how Google does it. If the app is refunded on another device or in the browser, then all it takes is for the app store to keep track of app licenses (which it already does) and remove apps when their license disappears. It seems odd, though, that Apple wouldn't have an API that allows…

It seems odd, though, that Apple wouldn't have an API that allows locking app functionally behind licenses

They do have something like that: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/storekit/in-app_pu...

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#545

Post by tekknik »

Vervious wrote: post #520
elliottkember wrote: post #512

I was mistaken in my original (now deleted) tweet and have been corrected by a few people Apple does not keep the 30% commission on a refund the refund happens as you’d expect. I don’t know where I got the idea that it worked the way I thought it did This was a follow-up by the tweet's author. https://twitter.com/twolivesleft/status/1288625617873694721?...

Misinformation really does spread like wildfire. Even with the number of naysayers on Hacker News we still seemed to have had a lapse in critical thinking. I've been wanting to get into research on the study of the spread of tweets like this. Anyone have pointers for reading material?

We? No the standard Apple haters did what they do and rage as soon as you hear the word Apple but this is not the entirety of HN acting this way.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#546

Post by rzwitserloot »

labcomputer wrote: post #494
km3r wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean they already track which device things are install and not installed on, a simple popup "please delete this app from all your devices in order to request a refund" would be all it takes . Or if that's too much of a disruption for users, just requiring the current device to delete it would cover most cases and be better then the current situation.

That... wouldn't work. Users can set each device to automatically download and install newly-purchased apps. Imagine the case where there is a device you have misplaced (or given to a relative, or had stolen, or ___). You must find every device with auto-download and purge the app from each one before requesting a refund. So you create a situation where it is possible that the user quite literally can't comply with t…

It is trivial to track that an app has never been opened on a device and automatically uninstall it in that case. Seems weird to fall all over the notion that 'oh no! apple can delete my apps remotely!' - but you're fine with 'apple can install apps remotely'.

Uninstalling an automatically installed, never-opened app is not a breach of the personality of your device.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#547

Post by mattferderer »

42droids wrote: post #528
mattferderer wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The credit card tests had unique network patterns we could block. We lowered our online donation limit. Above a certain amount it really is more ideal for a check or some other type of transaction. Though we've had a few people offer to just pay the 3% transaction fee on top of the multiple thousand dollar donation. For those we do a bit more manual process. For a cost, Stripe also lets you put some additional rules…

Thank you. It all makes sense. Did you end up using Stripe Radar to check for fraudulent payments? It is working well?

Yes & yes but your mileage may vary depending on your customers/donors. For example, we turned off transactions from several countries.

Honestly a basic version of this should be free. I shouldn't have to pay extra to say I only accept cards with a CVC number & expiration filled out.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#548

Post by sbarre »

sbarre wrote: post #199
jmull wrote: post #189

I'm a little stuck on the terminology here. Does "customer refunds your paid app" mean the customer requests and gets a (full) refund from Apple for a prior app purchase? (I would say "returns" not "refunds" ... Apple is the one refunding, not the customer. The customer receives the refund. But I guess this is some kind of regional/informal usage I'm not familiar with.) If so, that's BS. Apple could reasonably keep t…

As per the thread: You buy an app for $10, Apple gets $3, the developer gets $7. You refund the app (through the Apple App Store), you get your 10$ back, but that whole 10$ comes from the developer, unlike the 7/3 split when you first purchased it. So in the end, the developer has lost money due to the refund.

I'm adding this under my own post because it turns out this is false, and I just parroted something that wasn't true:

https://twitter.com/twolivesleft/status/1288625617873694721

Apple does not keep the commission when an app is refunded.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#549

Post by sbarre »

sercand wrote: post #404
sbarre wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As per the thread: You buy an app for $10, Apple gets $3, the developer gets $7. You refund the app (through the Apple App Store), you get your 10$ back, but that whole 10$ comes from the developer, unlike the 7/3 split when you first purchased it. So in the end, the developer has lost money due to the refund.

This is wrong. I just looked at our app store connect Sales and Trends page and for a $10 item: Apple proceeds $7 to developer and takes back $7 again from the developer on a refund.

Thank you for clarifying this, I also found this out via other means, and I've added my own reply under my post to indicate that.

Lesson learned for me to verify claims before supporting them!

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#550

Post by nyuszika7h »

p49k wrote: post #209
wlesieutre wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua... > In the EU you have the right to return purchases made online or through other types of distance selling, such as by phone, mail order or from a door-to-door salesperson, within 14 days for a full refund. You can do so for any reason – even if you simply changed your mind. There is a potential exemption for digital content "if you have already started d…

> Apple does not appear to have its customers agree to that Actually, with an EU iTunes account, you have an additional popup dialog you have to agree to with every in-app purchase where you have to agree that it does not qualify for the exemption.

That popup will only appear if your account has already been flagged by Apple for refund abuse. It certainly does not appear every time.

They have an "I would like to cancel this purchase" option in the EU for a reason, which gives you an unconditional refund within 14 days as long as you didn't get that popup when purchasing.

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