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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

With UBI, the poor will actually be more at the mercy of the rich as they'll depend on some powerful centralized instance providing them money, instead of earning their own via providing goods to the market (e.g. services). So, to actually solve the issue you're going to need to decentralize and de-automatize. Otherwise lots of people are going to lose their economic and hence existential purpose.

> they'll depend on some powerful centralized instance providing them money

You just described most jobs. The difference is that UBI would be something like a right, as opposed to jobs where you can be cutoff from your livelihood at a moment's notice.

> instead of earning their own via providing goods to the market (e.g. services)

We need to get over this Smithian vision of everyone being their own little entrepreneur. You'll see the job 'market' acts very little like a utility maximizing market when you get into the details. For example, see the endless posts on this site about 'culture fits' and ritualistic hazings posing as interviews.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#682
post #567

Universal basic income is not compatible with open borders. This is the main reason the left struggles with promoting it.

Why? Can you not just check the residency and citizenship status every few months? You already collect these for other purposes.

If you give every resident a nice check every month (the universal basic income) and have open borders, your country will soon be overcrowded with immigrants. And if you give the universal basic income to citizens only, it it not universal any more.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#683

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

I don't see how this would really work. A carbon tax in an ideal situation is just a consumption tax. This means that it's the consumer that pays it. Rich people don't eat more food nor do they drive dozens of cars at once. If we want this carbon tax to offset our greenhouse emissions then that means it will necessarily disproportionately impact poor people. And then you want to turn around and pay that money back to…

It's called a "carbon fee & dividend" and an increasing number of people are advocating it. (https://clcouncil.org/economists-statement/)

It's nowhere near enough to fund a UBI that most people could live on without additional assistance, but that's no reason not to do it. It just means you need to fund your UBI with other sources of revenue too. Really, I think the GP used the wrong word when they called the dividend a "UBI".

And it _really_ is the best policy. Even if it did nothing to reduce emissions, it's a matter of justice. I won't tell you that you can't fly across the country every single weekend or emit a gigaton of carbon mining bitcoin but, if you do, you _really_ should reimburse me and my 2-year-old daughter for the harm you're doing to our futures. Likewise, when I heat my ridiculous suburban mansion to 80F through the New York winter, I'm harming you and your children, so I should reimburse you.

But it WILL have a great effect on emissions (if ever implemented). Probably more than any other policy we might enact.

Some of the comments around here complain about how regressive a carbon tax is. But in fact it is only regressive when not combined with the dividend. The price of a poor person's carbon footprint as a fraction of their income or wealth IS larger than that of a wealthier person. But the fact is that most poor and urban working class people's dividends will be greater than the carbon fee they pay, while people who have giant houses, travel by air a lot, etc will pay more in fees than they receive in dividends.

This page (https://citizensclimatelobby.org/household-impact-study/) has a nice chart showing the fees and where they come from for an average household in each income quintile in the USA. The expected fees for each quintile (under a $15/ton carbon fee) are $173, $219, $252, $292, $381. On another page on the same site, you can find that the expected dividend (which just depends on the number of adults/children in the household) is $288.

Lastly, this policy is currently a bill in the US House of Representatives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Innovation_and_Carbon_D...) and is currently "sponsored" (whatever that means) by 18% of the house. Sadly almost all democrats. I think the policy saw more republican support during the few years before the current administration, but I can't find the data too easily at this moment.

This bill and past ones like it include a schedule for the price of emissions to start low and increase over the next several decades. The tax itself is to be collected at mines, ports, and oil refineries, where fossil fuels first enter the economy. Regular people will only see it in the form of initially-very-small increases in the price of goods and services. And they'll get their dividend check or direct deposit every month. I don't think I know anyone who wouldn't love getting that check in the mail.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#684
How about providing the basics for life such as

- Government provided housing

- Government provided meals. This can be in the form of communal kitchens much like British Kitchens [1]. This can then be used to ensure that everyone gets fed, that it is nutritionally sound and that it uses home grown produce. That way, it in effect subsidises farmers which means we can remove farm subsidies at the same time.

- Free public transport. Make all buses and trains free to use for everyone. This will help to reduce reliance upon cars and ensure that everyone can get around, so that it is possible to get to work.

UBI sounds wonderful, but it seems to be more of a subsidy to landlords, and those who are involved in selling. It would potentially provide for everyone but we'll then have the same problem as now where some children are going hungry [2] because there is no way to make sure that they are being fed. Without subsidised public transport, you have to use some of your UBI to get to work before you get your first pay cheque. This is a disincentive, as you are effectively investing up front for a future payout when you can just keep the money and enjoy it now.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Restaurant

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/15/levels-of-ch...

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

How does UBI differentiate itself from socialism, a welfare state and/or communism? Where is the money for UBI going to come from? What incentive would there be for people to work?

Tax rates on the rich are at historically low levels. Rich people would still get UBI but the top level tax rate would effectively cancel it out (and more). Current welfare wastes a lot of money on admin/staff/fraud investigations and none of that would be needed with UBI since everyone gets it.

People would still want money. UBI isn't going to be enough for a lavish lifestyle, people will still want to work. It would make lower-paying activities like art/open source more viable though.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#686
UBI seems to be socialism in disguise. Redistribution of wealth from the ultra rich to the poor by adding additional taxes on robots, carbon, etc. in order to create a more balanced society where the poor have better living standards and more expendable income to fuel the economy. Am I missing something?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

How does UBI differentiate itself from socialism, a welfare state and/or communism? Where is the money for UBI going to come from? What incentive would there be for people to work?

It doesn't. UBI is socialism.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#688
post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point. In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive. I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the pr…

A key point, Like in the well off middle class people can get subsidies for solar panels, but a single parent who buys her electricity via a prepayment meter pays more per KwH.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

How does UBI differentiate itself from socialism, a welfare state and/or communism? Where is the money for UBI going to come from? What incentive would there be for people to work?

The incentive for people to work is that $1000/mo would provide for a pretty meager existence. (This level is already an unaffordable level of UBI if paid to every US adult citizen; this is coming from someone philosophically aligned with UBI but also able to multiply and compare numbers.)
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