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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#471

Post by runarberg »

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #421
gzu wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of real world experience on a HackerNews UBI discussion is infuriating. Western society's white collar elite are completely unaware of truly how many "sucky" jobs there are in the world that all enable our (currently) superior standard of living. Your entire existence relies on a globalist system of slave level labor producing products from all corners of the world. Automation of every industry is impossible…

In Europe and Australia, all those jobs get done and the people doing them get fairly compensated for it. For example, the pay for a garbage truck driver is actually quite high, because it's an unpleasant job and they need to attract people to do it. And because the salary is high, it's also heavily automated, with pickers that grab bins and empty them into the truck. Meanwhile, in Southeast Asia, the same job is don…

> In Europe and Australia, all those jobs get done and the people doing them get fairly compensated for it.

Having worked in the service industry in wealthy Iceland for years, I can’t say I agree with this statement.

While working exusting 12 hour shifts with mandatory minimum pay (sometime a little less because of exploitative unpaid overtime), the owner of the business was regularly found to be the highest payed person in the country.

In other words, my work, contributed to some rich guy getting richer, while my compensation was only as little as he was allowed to pay me. That doesn’t seem fair does it. Ask any working class person, in europe and I’m sure they have a similar story.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#472

Post by sgustard »

lkschubert8 wrote: post #326
jonstaab wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see with that is that if a huge number of people take that route and happily (let's assume) live their lives without working, they lose access to the ability to participate in a meaningful way in the economy by producing something of value; if they're not producing value, no one is going to value them, and they'll eventually be locked out of the new, smaller elite group that controls the means of produc…

This gets at a problem I always wonder about with UBI (as someone who genuinely sees the value in a successful implementation of it). What happens in 20-30 years once the system has been entrenched. Will the children of those that choose not to work for additional income have decreased social capital an struggle to enter the workplace if they choose? How do you prevent those that choose to work from using the increas…

It's similar to children of mothers who all stayed at home. A generation later, many of their daughters decide (or are forced) to enter the workforce, but not all. I see working and non-working moms coexist today without any undue tension.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#473

Post by jezclaremurugan »

aetherspawn wrote: post #449

How about we meet in the middle. If you can provide a receipt for accomodation/rent and utilities, you are eligible for the UBI up to the value of your accomodation and utility bills (with limits). The UBI can subsidise classes of certain foods up to a certain value if you keep the receipts, but can not subsidise confectionary, soft drinks, smokes and alcohol. Only fresh food, milk, etc. with a nationally recognised…

This will be similar to the college fees conundrum, no? An increase in financial aid resulted in colleges spiking up their fees (one of many factors - but definitely one factor). So won't landlord be similarly incentivized to increase the rents they collect? Maybe a better example of what i'm referring to was a recent blog about why amish people get away with low medical expenses (one of the reasons being - their not being part of the insurance that the rest of the folks have..)

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#474

Post by st1ck »

gzu wrote: post #383
treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

The lack of real world experience on a HackerNews UBI discussion is infuriating. Western society's white collar elite are completely unaware of truly how many "sucky" jobs there are in the world that all enable our (currently) superior standard of living. Your entire existence relies on a globalist system of slave level labor producing products from all corners of the world. Automation of every industry is impossible…

> Whos going to: - clean your hotel/office/home - cook your food - serve your food - fix your household - grab your garbage [...]

People will take these "sucky" jobs, but they will be compensated well enough to justify it (since they will have an option of not working). This raise the prices overall, but not at the same level. For example, meat products prices will grow more than let's say organic vegetables. Note that demand for many of the products and services is pretty elastic (most people don't have to go to restaurants, they can cook something at home). This way at least people will have an option of having UBI and living frugally, instead of doing a crappy job.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#475

Post by lovehashbrowns »

czbond wrote: post #340
jonstaab wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see with that is that if a huge number of people take that route and happily (let's assume) live their lives without working, they lose access to the ability to participate in a meaningful way in the economy by producing something of value; if they're not producing value, no one is going to value them, and they'll eventually be locked out of the new, smaller elite group that controls the means of produc…

From a nilhistic point of view, isn't most work already performed by human useless and pointless in both the grand and minor scale? I do agree that my observation even from the Covid lockdown, is that many people's default state to pursue is activities with 'ease or non-challenged' rather than 'difficult '. To me, Covid lockdown proved why UBI was a bad idea. If humans have free time, they create dance videos on Tik-…

Taking your completely nihilistic view, why is working a useless and pointless job better than creating dance videos on tik tok?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#476

Post by john_moscow »

spyckie2 wrote: post #463
john_moscow wrote: post #328

I like how the article pointed out the biggest economic problem I see in post-industrial society - instead of almost everyone being a small business owner, we have huge corporations reaping massive profits, and poor replaceable corporate drones barely making ends meet. That said, I completely disagree with the proposed solution of UBI and here's why. We humans have a rather nasty bug in our firmware: when we do not h…

UBI is not a replacement for work - we do have to work under UBI. It just lessens the imminent need of working, affording a lot of people the ability to take more breaks from working to relax and recharge. I agree that a permanent state of non-work is bad for society, but UBI is not advocating for that at all.

Well, if we don't want to make it permanent, why go for UBI at all, rather than improving unemployment insurance?

IMO, a much better solution would be to segregate subsidized housing between quiet people who are actually trying to study, and the abusers that make such places unlivable.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#477

Post by _vertigo »

lysium wrote: post #401
alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

To me, a carbon tax sounds like it’s ok to piss into the pool as long as you pay for it. Nobody’s using the money to clean the pool, though. Sure, some will try to piss less, but I doubt you’d like to swim in it. For me, that’s the rational excuse to not rely on carbon tax. Instead, make everybody use the toilet.

Maybe if you explained your metaphor a bit more it would make sense to me - as it stands I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#478

Post by kamaal »

pgreenwood wrote: post #220

I support the idea of UBI in principle, but I think it needs to be combined with a land value tax in order to work as intended. Rents are charged at the highest the market will bear, so the UBI could just flow into the hands of landlords, and the people who it is supposed to help being no better off.

Why is that wrong?

Given you will have progressive taxes. Land lords will be paying for your UBI more than others would will be paying for it.

The idea is here is not to punish the rich. But it's more on the lines of ensuring every one has something to rely on if they don't have a job.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#479

Post by lovehashbrowns »

dantheman wrote: post #402
Shared404 wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, there's me. I hate not working. I would appreciate a UBI, as it would let me get out of a not so great place, and let me focus on working on what I like to do, but I would definitely still be doing useful work.

If the work your going to be doing is useful, then why don't you do it? Or is it objectively not as useful as your current occupation? In general the market compensates based on how much it is wanted by others. It's amazing what an individual will think is useful when doing the work, vs what a customer who pay for.

How many people would rather raise their kids than work one or more jobs? Or has raising kids not been deemed useful because "in general" the market will compensate based on how much others want it?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#480

Post by Animats »

One possibility is to discourage advertising. As the article points out, it's zero-sum. 78% of Americans are spent out. Make advertising no longer a deductible business expense. It's like multilateral disarmament. There are too many products where most of the cost is advertising.

As for universal basic income, someone wrote that the 21st century has been the move from career, to job, to gig, to universal basic income.

How about enforcing an 8 hour day, a 40 hour week, and a good minimum wage? That's a start. And make "time theft" by employers a crime.

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