Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#221

Post by w0rdson » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:56 AM UTC

I definitely need to research this topic more, but after reading everyone's arguments for and against UBI, I think maybe the right solution is somewhere right in the middle.

Instead of giving everyone $X,000 a month, what if there was some sort of secondary currency or credits that all Americans receive (call them Patriot bucks or whatever) that could be used for necessities like food, public transportation, etc.

I don't think the currency should be used for housing costs, but I could maybe be persuaded otherwise. Ideally though, by having the necessities covered, it would free up income earned through working to cover rent, and thus working would still be encouraged.

This seems like something that's easily doable and doesn't solve poverty completely (there are still other costs like health care), but this would help a lot of people and be a step toward UBI in the future maybe.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#222

Post by drewwwwww » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:56 AM UTC

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

> I do think people radically underestimate the unforeseen consequences of a free guaranteed income, even if it was low. I’d be willing to live as a poor person if that meant not having to work. Actually, where I live now I live comfortably on $1200 a month. I definitely would choose not to work or work less if that money came free from government. If I got free money I wouldn’t increase spending, I would reduce work.

this is not an unforeseen circumstance, but a desired outcome

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#223

Post by Talanes » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:57 AM UTC

christiansakai wrote: post #207

I know these are anecdotes but I already heard several cases from my circle of friends and families where they just chose not to work because of unemployment checks. Instead of practicing music or learning programming or doing something productive during their period of unemployment, they decided to watch Netflix and play games all day. Creating is hard work, studying is hard work. Just like having information and on…

I don't think the reaction of anybody on that short of a time scale tells us anything. And that's not even accounting for the inherent weirdness of this time in particular.

Of course most people, presented with the opportunity to do nothing for the first time in their adult life will take it for a while. Especially people who know that they will not have the opportunity again in the future.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#224

Post by jnwatson » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:57 AM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #191

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

> A UBI paid for with a carbon tax This can’t work for one very obvious reason: The incentive is supposed to be to reduce carbon emissions, but a UBI funded by carbon emissions has the opposite incentive.

Taxes on casinos incentivizes gambling?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#225

Post by perilunar » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:58 AM UTC

phillpot wrote: post #20

GDP is a bad metric. The planet does not have unlimited resources to fuel unlimited growth.

What makes you think we are limited to just this planet?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#226

Post by rubyfan » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:59 AM UTC

serious question... if we give everyone some money evenly, would we see inflation relative to that new money?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#227

Post by ATsch » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:59 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #182

thephyber wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most likely implementation in the existing US federal government is a negative income tax. > I definitely would choose not to work or work less if that money came free from government. You aren't alone, so your $1200 would not go as far in that future as it does now. There would be some inflation (perhaps only localized increased costs to some industries), but I'd suspect that people working less would be a featu…

> Some people would move from industries which have lots of crappy manual jobs (like janitorial services) That work still has to get done though. Somebody has to be the janitor. If you then increase the pay of a janitor then lots of people that would otherwise increase their skills to do with that requires more skills would end up as a janitor instead. This triggers a pay increase in those jobs too. I don't see how y…

Yes, that work has to be done. I'd just rather we find a way to do it that does not involve a system of glorified slavery where we force people to do it for survival.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#228

Post by skosch » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:59 AM UTC

petermcneeley wrote: post #174

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

Carbon taxes tend to be regressive. Using a regressive tax to fund "ubi" sounds cunningly evil. Are you familiar with the yellow jacket protests in France?

Not if you make it revenue neutral – HR763 is basically a mini-UBI funded by carbon taxes: https://citizensclimatelobby.org/energy-innovation-and-carbo...

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#229

Post by m0zg » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:59 AM UTC

People need jobs though. Otherwise you get riots.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#230

Post by jumpman500 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 3:00 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #166

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

I don't see how this would really work. A carbon tax in an ideal situation is just a consumption tax. This means that it's the consumer that pays it. Rich people don't eat more food nor do they drive dozens of cars at once. If we want this carbon tax to offset our greenhouse emissions then that means it will necessarily disproportionately impact poor people. And then you want to turn around and pay that money back to…

I get your point but I think sending the right signals to the market about carbon use is more important.

If we need to tax the rich more we tax the rich more. If we can’t control global warming poor people have much worse things than taxes coming to ruin their lives.