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The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

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Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#161

Post by thodin »

thrwway34 wrote: post #160
thodin wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glushkov was never about packet switching, he had an idea to build new dedicated physical network for this project, he estimated that this project will need more resources than nuclear and space program combined (!). It was actually a waste of materials, resources and completely incompetent. And access to that network was planned as very secure, even the project itself was partly top secret. In real world, we in USSR…

Actually it appeared a little before 1991, in 1989. There was first Internet connection to Finland in Demos institute (their demos.su domain is still operational) and I can remember reading their Usenet posting about communist coup d'etat in 1991.

Demos got their international UUCP connection only in 1990. In 1989 they were playing with Moscow-only UUCP network. Everything was dialup based.

In 1991 they played with local TCP/IP in Moscow, in 1992 started to make dialup calls to Finland with SLIP instead of pure UUCP. Only in 1993 several permanent TCP/IP links from Russia (Demos, SOVAM Teleport, etc) to the West were finally established.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#162

Post by thrwway34 »

tehjoker wrote: post #132
TimPC wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your oversimplifying here. I think economic growth is strongly tied to stability but it's also strongly tied to mechanisms. Pricing as a vehicle for measuring supply and demand simply outstrips everything else we've tried. Even this article mentions how difficult it is to centrally plan supply and demand and how large the bureaucracy needs to be. Perhaps some technocratic socialism could create a computerized…

Markets are democracy for the rich. They are only democratic when everyone has roughly equal purchasing power, a condition which is nearly immediately undone by a market. The whole idea that founded the Soviet Union is that markets are deeply undemocratic and they were trying something different. You can criticize their attempt, but it's important to at least understand that.

There were plenty of markets and black markets in USSR. Most of the time the only reliable source of meat and poultry for ordinary citizen was a "Farmer's Market" (Колхозный Рынок).

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#163

Post by thrwway34 »

thodin wrote: post #161
thrwway34 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it appeared a little before 1991, in 1989. There was first Internet connection to Finland in Demos institute (their demos.su domain is still operational) and I can remember reading their Usenet posting about communist coup d'etat in 1991.

Demos got their international UUCP connection only in 1990. In 1989 they were playing with Moscow-only UUCP network. Everything was dialup based. In 1991 they played with local TCP/IP in Moscow, in 1992 started to make dialup calls to Finland with SLIP instead of pure UUCP. Only in 1993 several permanent TCP/IP links from Russia (Demos, SOVAM Teleport, etc) to the West were finally established.

According to their 'memoirs' they made a dialup connection to Finland in 1989: second link from 'History' https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEMOS_(ISP)

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#164

Post by ggm »

Niccizero wrote: post #112
gumby wrote: post #78

A similar system was planned for Chile until the CIA overthrew their government in 1973. Allende was really far sighted and imaginative.

It wasn't our goverment. Allende won by parlamentary tricks (not by popular vote) and had very poor support during the entirety of his govement.

Oh come on. It was a three way vote tie and there was a constitutional process. He was displaced by a junta, and they slaughtered innocents, and you want to complain about Allende's election?

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#165

Post by drran »

yesenadam wrote: post #157
drran wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good that it antisoviet, isn't? Soviet Union was responsible for millions of deaths. In Soviet Union, you will be prosecuted as American spy just because you have account on HN.

Well, the USA was also responsible for millions of deaths in countries around the world, but don't suppose you think being anti-US is good on that account.

It looks like you mismatched USA with Britain Empire.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#166

Post by drran »

thodin wrote: post #151
drran wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good that it antisoviet, isn't? Soviet Union was responsible for millions of deaths. In Soviet Union, you will be prosecuted as American spy just because you have account on HN.

Not really. In Soviet Union it was possible to have connection to the outside world only in case you were completely trusted (checked by KGB many times). No one was prosecuted in SU for unauthorized access to western computer resources because they had not a single chance to get it without state permission.

So you are working for KGB. Right? ;-)

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#167

Post by trabant00 »

bluetomcat wrote: post #33
trabant00 wrote: post #23

You can't come up with plan like this and not come up with 'what's in it for them' in Russia or Eastern Europe. Not even now.

Case in point - Bulgaria. Overstaffed state administration consisting of more than 400 thousand people spread throughout the whole country, for a population of 6.5m. All that staff are regular hard voters for the currently ruling party, in exchange for promises for pay increases and bonuses. There is also strong resistance to introducing any effective electronic governance because it might render these people unemplo…

We're neighbours and I understand. One thing to be mindful of though: we have to phase out state jobs slowly. Mostly waiting for the aging buraocrats to die. Doing it too fast means you have to support a lot of unemployment which strains the already weak economy.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#168

Post by [deleted] »

winstonewert wrote: post #147
zackmorris wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to hear you say that. When I was growing up in the 1980s, everything was top-down (NASA, IBM, even pop culture). '95-99 was when the internet popularized the idea of barely controlled anarchy leading to success that we take for granted today. On a tangent, I personally feel that bottom-up design has been an almost complete failure. The US has lost its ability to articulate what it needs to do, and th…

> not to mention that elections can't be rigged when votes are centrally counted What?

[deleted]

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#169

Post by thodin »

thrwway34 wrote: post #163
thodin wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demos got their international UUCP connection only in 1990. In 1989 they were playing with Moscow-only UUCP network. Everything was dialup based. In 1991 they played with local TCP/IP in Moscow, in 1992 started to make dialup calls to Finland with SLIP instead of pure UUCP. Only in 1993 several permanent TCP/IP links from Russia (Demos, SOVAM Teleport, etc) to the West were finally established.

According to their 'memoirs' they made a dialup connection to Finland in 1989: second link from 'History' https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEMOS_(ISP)

In 1990, according to comment from Antonov.

Please also check detailed history: http://ru.arf.ru/Hrono/index.html

12-19 August 1990.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#170

Post by thodin »

drran wrote: post #166
thodin wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. In Soviet Union it was possible to have connection to the outside world only in case you were completely trusted (checked by KGB many times). No one was prosecuted in SU for unauthorized access to western computer resources because they had not a single chance to get it without state permission.

So you are working for KGB. Right? ;-)

Soviet Union and KGB are long dead.
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