Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#81

Post by bluedevil2k » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:08 AM UTC

wtfareyouon wrote: post #56

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

[flagged]

I hardly think my comments are way out there at all, and would probably be agreed with by most Americans. I never made a comment that UBI would hurt poor people, merely distort the job market.

(And be a man, stand by your comments and don’t make a throw away)

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#82

Post by alexmingoia » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:10 AM UTC

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government...

Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

I do think people radically underestimate the unforeseen consequences of a free guaranteed income, even if it was low. I’d be willing to live as a poor person if that meant not having to work. Actually, where I live now I live comfortably on $1200 a month. I definitely would choose not to work or work less if that money came free from government. If I got free money I wouldn’t increase spending, I would reduce work.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#83

Post by unloco » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:10 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

Most Americans will take the UBI and do good things with it, not quit or change their job. It will boost the lower tiers up a notch and allow people to explore better options, ie Music Teacher, but that is nothing but beneficial. People that dont like heavy work shouldnt be doing it. It will give workers a bit more power of choice, but that isn't something to be scared of. There will always be workers to fill those jobs with good pay, no skill but they may rotate out more frequently. Blue collar workers -like me- normally find certain comfort in their jobs being outdoors, hard labor, and not contained to cubicle (or a room of kids lol).

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#84

Post by chii » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:11 AM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #38

DeonPenny wrote: post #28

I feel like this is the perfect example why everyone should at some point be required to start a business. Because some of these ideas stem from to many people not understand the economy in a real sense because they are always workers and see the world through that lens.

You don’t need to make an attempt as a business owner to understand why the economy is broken. A change in perspective doesn’t fix a broken system. Edit: I am absolutely biased against a system that favors the wealthy at the detriment to your average citizen. “Look at how well this system works for us while the rest of you suffer!” is not helpful.

> A change in perspective doesn’t fix a broken system.

You've just shown your bias by labeling the system broken, despite calling for a change in perspective.

may be it isn't broken from the point of view of the business owners. How would you know without first living from their perspective?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#85

Post by persona » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:11 AM UTC

In complex systems, it's tempting to look for a silver bullet: If we only did "this".

This Capitalism 2.0 would also need to be a system of things that enables a new direction - whatever that may be - based on the fragile regression to the mean of what an expected aggregated view of that looks like.

UBI can or cannot be part of that system, but by itself it can quickly become irrelevant.

Most economic theories of capitalism are based on (mostly) rational behaviors of the majority of market participants. Social studies will show that in topics related to finances/money, behaviors are all over the place.

Want to drive towards Capitalism 2.0? Start with financial education, support systems, relevant incentives (maybe UBI is one of them) and a good shared vision of what that 2.0 is.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#86

Post by swagasaurus-rex » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:11 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #54

bilal4hmed wrote: post #15

most of the middle eastern countries have UBI. Hasnt really done anything for them

I wonder why people tend to ignore de facto near UBI in those places (for citizens). And since no one (citizens who get de facto UBI) wants to work, they have to import labor.

Would anybody please volunteer to tell us more about it?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#87

Post by jostylr » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:11 AM UTC

xivzgrev wrote: post #72

Honest question - how does one prevent inflation with UBI? If the market price of an apartment is $500, and suddenly everyone gets UBI, the landlord would raise the price as much as he can, say $1000. People on UBI are in the same relative position as before. They still can’t get the apartment because there’s enough people who have the UBI plus something else and can pay $1000.

Basically, people can move to other areas, people can buy and rehabilitate housing stock with the extra income, competition between landlords, ...

I made a more detailed comment in response to a similar question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=237910967

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#88

Post by blackflame7000 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:12 AM UTC

jay_kyburz wrote: post #79

I understand and agree with how a UBI will benefit those that are currently falling between the cracks and not receiving any assistance. I can also see the benefits of greatly simplifying the social security system. (If it was implemented in a way that was actually simple. i.e. no distinction between sick, unemployed, old, lazy) But I don't understand why people don't believe the UBI will just become the new definiti…

Exactly. The key to making people happier is not to give them money, but create more jobs that give people meaning and purpose in their lives.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#89

Post by Polylactic_acid » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:12 AM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #70

runawaybottle wrote: post #13

Won’t it just be negated with increased cost of living? If people get 1000 a month free, you better believe that rent starts at 1000. The free money will never do what it’s supposed to do in the long run. It’s better to just give the actual service for free (healthcare, college, transportation).

1. Inflation is primarily a monetary phenomenon. So as long as you pay for UBI through increased taxes rather than by borrowing or printing the money, it won't cause overall inflation. Certainly it will cause local distortions -- some stuff will go up in price but that should be balanced by the stuff that goes down in price. 2. Another possible theory is that UBI will allow people to move away from expensive cities t…

Probably the biggest change I expect is very undesirable jobs will either become automated or high paying because you have people thinking "I hate working as a toilet cleaner but it pays so much its worth it" Or we will end up with self cleaning toilets. There is no longer a whole class of people who will work any job no matter how shit and for the minimum wage because they are forced to.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#90

Post by bluedevil2k » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

xivzgrev wrote: post #72

Honest question - how does one prevent inflation with UBI? If the market price of an apartment is $500, and suddenly everyone gets UBI, the landlord would raise the price as much as he can, say $1000. People on UBI are in the same relative position as before. They still can’t get the apartment because there’s enough people who have the UBI plus something else and can pay $1000.

It could cause inflation because the money velocity would increase (if you’re a disciple of Milton Friedman). The presumption is that the money taken from rich peoples (and company’s) savings, that they’re not spending, and giving it to people who would spend it every month would increase the velocity and potentially cause inflation.