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Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

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Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#31
So I used to work with someone from Amazon retail. He told me, in no uncertain terms, that Amazon mined their seller data to undercut them. We sold on Amazon and he constantly told us that we were fools to do so. He even mentioned that prior to accepting a position he had looked up our seller performance to make sure he was going to a good company.

Maybe policies have since changed. At the time I was also told the most popular "test" SKU used by Amazon engineers was a 50 gallon barrel of lube.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah there it is. That makes a lot more sense... honestly at their scale I don't think they should be able to do this, aggregate or not. They're about 50% of all online sales in the US, where compared to brick-and-mortar, Walmart gets a lot of flak as a small-business killer despite only accounting for 15% of all physical retail sales.

eCommerce, though, only accounted for 16% of all 2019's US retail sales. [0] So, Walmart ought to get rid of all these private brands [1] I take it? [0] https://www.digitalcommerce360.com/article/e-commerce-sales-... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Walmart_brands

Right not a bad point, but I was making the comparison to demonstrate Amazon's scale within ecommerce... not to compare the volume of sales across all commerce.

I personally think the distinction matters, but maybe I'm wrong.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#34

First of all, people like to complain about Amazon owned brands. But this is just retailing 101, nothing new here. Walk around a Costco and try and find a non Costco branded product in a variety of categories. People seem to love Costco's Kirkland brand and (personally) I also enjoy the AmazonBasics brand. Why have I never heard a peep about Costco? You can make an argument that Amazon's market power has enabled it t…

The argument I’m familiar with goes as follows: Stores choose all their goods, bazaars provide stalls for merchants. People don’t like when one tries to masquerade as the other, or, be both.

Costco, being a store, can choose foods or goods that have been rebranded or independently sourced and no one really cares — they are still fully autonomous. They have always taken ownership of the product, so a change in supply seems to be completely within the store’s wheelhouse.

On the other hand, Amazon is a bazaar. Merchants line up, trying to get you to purchase from their stall using various tactics. Merchants get unhappy when they see that the bazaar’s guard uses their ledger to inform the head of the bazaar which merchants he could kick out. Not literally kick out, but be put in a worse position so that the bazaar’s own products are now the first ones people see.

This conflict of interest is in direct opposition of the merchants and may be in opposition of the consumers.

I personally really like Amazon Basics, as it tends to remove the brand cost. However, there’s a reason brands became popular in the first place — and the Amazon Basic brand is not one I associate with “quality”. I think the best part of the Amazon Basic brand is that it establishes a minimum bar of quality that Amazon generally needs. I know if so want the cheapest I go to them, otherwise I do my research or rely on brand reputation like I did before.

This is becoming more of the case with Whole Foods, which I’ve started to avoid. They were a quality store and that quality (seems to) have gone down. The issue with the Whole Foods purchase is that there are lower quality grocery stores already, so I’d be interested in how they’re doing with that market.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#35
post #26

First of all, people like to complain about Amazon owned brands. But this is just retailing 101, nothing new here. Walk around a Costco and try and find a non Costco branded product in a variety of categories. People seem to love Costco's Kirkland brand and (personally) I also enjoy the AmazonBasics brand. Why have I never heard a peep about Costco? You can make an argument that Amazon's market power has enabled it t…

On Costco, it’s not a marketplace for third party sellers to ship to customers. Sure it’s closer to us to make analogies with traditional brands, but Amazon’s position is nothing similar. Then, the difference between business as usual and market power abuse is the extent to which you do something. The same way annoying someone and bullying is a matter of degree. Here being in a dominant position Is what makes it diff…

> On Costco, it’s not a marketplace for third party sellers to ship to customers. Sure it’s closer to us to make analogies with traditional brands, but Amazon’s position is nothing similar.

Is it not? I mean, some of the details are different, but fundamentally Costco sells third party products. I don't really see how the distinction here is relevant to the issue at hand.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#36

First of all, people like to complain about Amazon owned brands. But this is just retailing 101, nothing new here. Walk around a Costco and try and find a non Costco branded product in a variety of categories. People seem to love Costco's Kirkland brand and (personally) I also enjoy the AmazonBasics brand. Why have I never heard a peep about Costco? You can make an argument that Amazon's market power has enabled it t…

Kirkland products are actually white label versions of the products they copy, produced by the company they are copying - so it’s an entirely different situation - ie Costco is paying brands for their products (albeit at a lower price), not stealing. Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23912991

[deleted]

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#37

First of all, people like to complain about Amazon owned brands. But this is just retailing 101, nothing new here. Walk around a Costco and try and find a non Costco branded product in a variety of categories. People seem to love Costco's Kirkland brand and (personally) I also enjoy the AmazonBasics brand. Why have I never heard a peep about Costco? You can make an argument that Amazon's market power has enabled it t…

I think you're right that Amazon has come to dominate a lot of markets on merit. But it's still the case that having overly dominant players in a market is bad for... well everyone except the dominant player. It doesn't matter why or how it came to be.

This is not universally true. It's bad if the dominant player uses their dominance to deliver sub-par quality at high prices. But so far Amazon doesn't seem to be doing that, at least in my user experience of it.

It is bad that they might one day be able to parlay their dominance into harming consumers, but the dominance itself is not necessarily a bad thing, IMO.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#38

>Before the Journal’s report came out, Amazon had told Congress that it doesn’t access sales data to help guide the launch of its own products. This is insanely hard to believe. Amazon just started selling batteries and other random goods under their Basics brand based on ZERO inside sales knowledge? I'd love to see how they enforce that.

Look closely. Amazon claimed they don't access individual seller data, but they do access aggregated product data. However, in at least one case the aggregated data was only between two sellers: Amazon Warehouse (which only sold a few returned items) and the original seller. "Amazon draws a distinction between the data of an individual third-party seller and what it calls aggregated data, which it defines as the data…

They do, though. I have been on calls with Amazon reps to discuss how our ad campaigns have been performing, what can be done, and what additional sources of data from Amazon we can access through beta programs and the like. Individual Amazon agents of varying levels constantly check and reference the private data of individual sellers for all kinds of reasons (again, most of them justified and useful). In most such cases I have been very impressed on the search ad side of things. On the outside Amazon ad placement side of things (Amazon Media Group) they were basically crooks, but that is normal in display ad world, which is a crooked world full of frauds.

They can absolutely access individual seller data and do so all the time for all kinds of (mostly mundane) reasons. The aggregated data is also actually more valuable than the individualized data in most situations.

Amazon unlike Google has tended to open up more accurate sources of data to larger groups of sellers, in contrast with Google or FB which have tended to start off giving people lots and lots of free data and then paywalling more and more of it through the progressive crippling of the keyword tool and so on.

Frankly Amazon is so bad at selling its own private label products that it should not concern anyone. They suck at it compared to any other major retailer that you can think of. I have seen Amazon private labels be discontinued and fail and have competed with Amazon products successfully in many different categories on Amazon. They are usually pretty lazy and un-inventive. When they succeed it is usually at the level of "acceptable competence, good price to performance ratio" as in many of the Amazon Basics computer hardware accessories.

It is a major distraction from other serious issues like the endemic crime on the platform (counterfeiting etc.) which actually poses a serious danger to customers, to Amazon, to sellers, and to brands as well.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#39
I see no fault on Amazon's side about using the data that are accessible to them, and exploit whatever value from them.

Naturally, the competition is for a winner to emerge. Not to continuously drag on in a competition. What Amazon did is natural and reasonable in a competition.

Secondly, it's a reasonable thing for a platform to access aggregate sales data. Amazon is a retail platform. It's entirely unreasonable to forbid them from using such data for the benefits of the sellers and buyers, and for their platform to function better.

In the end, this is a value judgement: * Is it still a valuable thing to let the small retailers to operate independently, and be free from of systematic data-driven competition from platforms?

My feeling is that the small retailers are just an inefficient way of using society resources. And I support Amazon's strategy.

Re: Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access independent seller data

#40

First of all, people like to complain about Amazon owned brands. But this is just retailing 101, nothing new here. Walk around a Costco and try and find a non Costco branded product in a variety of categories. People seem to love Costco's Kirkland brand and (personally) I also enjoy the AmazonBasics brand. Why have I never heard a peep about Costco? You can make an argument that Amazon's market power has enabled it t…

Honestly it’s a dumb hill to choose to die on for the simple reason it is so obviously pro consumer as to be politically and legally untenable as a status quo antitrust matter.
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