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Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

sticerd.lse.ac.uk

121–130 of 310 posts

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#121
I’m not qualified to judge the technical merits of the paper, but their conclusion seems plausible. They concluded that in an illiterate rural population, there did seem to be a threshold effect in asset levels above which it seemed much easier to progress economically. But it’s unclear to me how applicable this is to the poor in the US or other developed economies, particularly when we’re talking about a population where almost everyone can read and write, and many of them have cellphones and internet access. Part of the reason that many people (including my family) try to emigrate from developing countries to more developed economies is that the same person, with the same skills, can be vastly more productive in those economies, which is what allows that person to have a much better lifestyle. And much of the reason that high-productivity jobs are not available in those poor countries is because of a lack of capital. So it makes sense that giving the poor some minimal amount of capital is required, so that those same people can be more productive. But it seems unlikely to me that adding capital (increasing the assets of poor people) would have the same beneficial effect in developed economies, given the large pre-existing ‘capital stock’

This [article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/08/27/by-globa...) describes what american poverty levels would be if we used the same measure as we do in developing countries and makes the point that by those measures there are no poor people in the US, just “lower middle class”. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try and improve the lives of people at the lower end of the income distribution, but we should at least understand that when we use the term poverty in developing and developed economies, we’re talking about something qualitatively and quantitatively different - so the optimal solutions are likely different too.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#122
post #102

The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes thought, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots…

I'm not trying to generalize, because I know poor people who are poor through no fault of their own (and we should provide public support for them), but I also know a larger number of people who contributed to their own dire financial situation and it wasn't because they couldn't afford quality boots, it was because they over-extended themselves with new cars, a way too big house, the big screen TVs and expensive tri…

And bankruptcy fixes things for the latter folks because they have a good, stable income.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#123
The paper says:

> The question is whether the bimodality is symptomatic of a poverty trap, namely whether poor people do casual jobs and hold nearly no productive assets because they do not have the talent to do anything else or whether the fact that they are poor prevents them from acquiring the assets needed to climb the occupational ladder.

The cause/effect inversion, of talent/ability => asset acquisition, is always worrying. We might benefit, as a society, if we confront the IQ problem honestly and head-on, in order to have a more complete/accurate policy picture especially because it seems reasonable that wealth transfers should be optimised to enable higher productivity.

Consider: "The Bell Curve Review:IQ Best Indicates Poverty"(Benjamin, 2018), in which:

> I find that IQ is more correlated with poverty than socio-economic-status in every regression, regardless of what is included in the regression, by a factor of 3.

Also: Hsu(2015) https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2015/04/income-weath-and-iq.ht...

> Income mobility is strongly affected by IQ. In fact, IQ is a much stronger predictor variable than race for escaping the bottom quintile of income.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#124
post #117

Without making the jump from washing plates/factory work to software I don't know how I would have escaped(still haven't) considering my pay increased 4 times. Just brutal when you trade hours for money directly at a low rate, I was doing 70hrs washing plates before and it was nothing ha. Edit: there is the thought of living within your means, personally with a roommate I could live on $10-$20K a year which you can m…

Ever read the Zine from the 90's called Dishwasher ? That is my favorite Zine of all time. I absolutely loved it.

I have not read that. There is something nice about dishwasher jobs because they're high turnover rate/low barrier to entry/can get hired pretty quickly. Granted in some cases I had to go through some application process eg. take a quiz on running over 2 people or 1 on train tracks, etc... but yeah. I'm hoping at least by now, I have enough "value" as a developer to be able to worst case freelance hourly or something. At least now I'm paid well enough/working on saving. I almost welcome failure in a way because it's exciting/scrambling like needing to manifest a miracle. I have contingency plans you know sell everything I own, etc... but yeah. Worst outcome is prison/death I think. So I have no excuse but to try.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#125

This seems to be "Why do people stay in poverty?" "Poor" has a different meaning depending on who you ask. For example, students are popularly considered "poor". Some people would consider themselves "poor" if they can't afford a car. Some people consider themselves "poor" because they are not millionaires.

I have not read the article, but assume that their use of the term "poor" was carefully defined.

Yeah but my comment was more about the fact people here are talking about mortgages and things. Not really the same kind of poor.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#126
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extremely well put. One of my favorite quotes from fiction comes from The Great Gatsby’s first page, “In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since. "Whenever you feel like criticizing any one," he told me, "just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had."” How dare we assume we would be who we are (g…

FIRST LADY MICHELLE OBAMA - I mean, my values, in terms of what I think my obligation – my personal obligation – Michelle Obama – is that it is not enough that I succeed on my own. I have to care about the kid in the desk next to me at school because he’s just as smart but his mom works. And my father always kind of taught us to take in everybody’s full story. Not to judge people, the drunk uncle or the cousin out of…

While this is excellent advice for consideration of others, it changes _nothing_ for drunk uncle or out of work cousin that there are "reasons".

Maybe government can help, depending (likely the underlying motive of the quote. i.e. promotion of social programs over "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" rhetoric). Or maybe government can not help but will try anyway at great expense and possibly make things worse.

We have seen both scenarios. Thus I'm always personally suspicious of any ideology that regards government as a universal and infallible solution to all problems, and any ideology that regards government as perpetual failure at effectively and efficiently solving anything.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#127

The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes thought, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots…

This might have been true back when boots routinely had cardboard in them but when it comes to necessities and near-necessities the poor people versions do 90% as well at a fraction of the cost. It's all the other stuff you spend your money on when you're poor that screws you.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#128
post #102

The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes thought, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots…

I'm not trying to generalize, because I know poor people who are poor through no fault of their own (and we should provide public support for them), but I also know a larger number of people who contributed to their own dire financial situation and it wasn't because they couldn't afford quality boots, it was because they over-extended themselves with new cars, a way too big house, the big screen TVs and expensive tri…

Poor people don’t go on airplane vacations or own houses. Poor people don’t have bank accounts. You don’t know poor people. You know people who live beyond their means.

Poor people are in Section 8 housing or various other housing vouchers.

Re: Why Do People Stay Poor? [pdf]

#130
post #28

Without making the jump from washing plates/factory work to software I don't know how I would have escaped(still haven't) considering my pay increased 4 times. Just brutal when you trade hours for money directly at a low rate, I was doing 70hrs washing plates before and it was nothing ha. Edit: there is the thought of living within your means, personally with a roommate I could live on $10-$20K a year which you can m…

This sort of perspective is very important, especially here on HN where I see plenty of ignorance on this topic. When you work these jobs, often the local cost of living is pinned to these minimum wages, where you stagnate and are unable to save. How can you possible afford to move when your rent increases? You have no savings to rent a vehicle to move your things, nothing to put down up front for a new apartment, an…

> You have no savings to rent a vehicle

Come on, U-Haul is like $50, including some mileage.

> cost of living is pinned to these minimum wages

That is true. That's also reason #3245 why UBI is a stupid idea.

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