Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

calvertjournal.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 187 posts

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#61

Post by gen220 »

xxpor wrote: post #54
gen220 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poetically, this universe you've created reminds me of the story of the Berlin metro during the Cold War. Prior to the division of the city, the metro system spanned the whole city, and was rebuilt to functioning capacity in the aftermath of WW II. Once it became necessary to construct a controlled border between the NATO and Soviet sectors, they eventually erected barriers on the tracks; creating two disconnected tr…

Were the armed guards there to keep the western trains from stopping or for keeping easterners from escaping via the tunnels?

I think this is one of those cases where the most correct answer is simply "yes".

Realistically, the guards were put there to halt the transfer of people, goods, and currency: to be the physical manifestation of a hard border. Although, the motivation for this border (who it benefits, is it to keep "others" out vs "us" in) was a dynamic concept that evolved over time.

However, if you integrate the motivation function over the entire time of separation, which is one way of reducing the complexity, the primary result is to keep easterners from escaping. In the early days of widening division, there was a mass migration of people fleeing "The East"; each person carried a multitude of reasons for their flight. One effect of the border was to halt this flow.

There were easterners who sincerely viewed this differently, and wanted to keep westerners out (especially the "spies"!); however, their perspectives were definitely a minority, and don't survive the integral.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#62

Post by leptoniscool »

It really doesn't matter which group of people or what state "invented" the internet. Humanity is better off now with it. It's also incorrect to assign all credits to the origin, since it involves all the people who have worked to improve it incrementally.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#63

Post by xorcist »

nradov wrote: post #8
ZinniaZirconium wrote: post #4

It would have been so cool if the USSR had its own internet and shared it with China and China were still running it now because wouldn't it be great to stop hearing about how people think firewalling the entire Chinese IP space will keep hackers out. Also a parallel internet built on something other than TCP/IP would promote competition to see which internet design is technically superior. But realistically nobody w…

We had other protocols. TCP/IP won exactly because it was technically superior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Wars

No, it won because it could be carried over all other protocols. It had a simple design and real world use cases too, which helped. A classic example of "worse is better".

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#64

Post by mike_ivanov »

myth_drannon wrote: post #2

So a bit like a capitalist entrepreneur who needs to have a brilliant idea and be a great salesman, the scientists in USSR had to have a cunning social skills to push their ideas through layers of un-interested bureaucracy. A Sisyphian task that would just cause them to become disengaged. That's how that society got its alcoholics, poetry evenings and other sublimation hobbies.

I don't understand why are you being downvoted. You are factually correct - which I can confirm as a first hand witness (and a participant) of what you have described here.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#65

Post by mherdeg »

Spooky23 wrote: post #25
nradov wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had other protocols. TCP/IP won exactly because it was technically superior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Wars

Somewhat related, Netheads vs. Bellheads https://www.wired.com/1996/10/atm-3/ I briefly worked at a place fully dominated by Bellheads early in my career. They were bemoaning IP and holding on to ATM stuff as late as 2001. I'm told that the last of their tribe (after I left) fought off VoIP as a passing fad well into the 2000s.

Hard to believe this was nearly a quarter century ago. T he references are getting dated:

> "How do you scare a Bellhead?" he begins. "First, show them something like RealAudio or IPhone. Then tell them that right now performance is bandwidth-limited, but that additional infrastructure is being deployed." > … > One result is undergrads who, for $29.95 a month, clog up the Internet with CU-SeeMe sessions.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#66

Post by anarbadalov »

decebalus1 wrote: post #6

Fascinating stuff. If you're interested in this, you'll love 'How Not to Network a Nation' by Benjamin Peters [0]. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27310479-how-not-to-netw...

Agreed! (full disclosure: i work for MIT Press). Here's a 3,000-word version of the book that readers of this piece will also appreciate: https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-soviets-invented-the-internet...

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#67

Post by tropdrop »

trabant00 wrote: post #23

You can't come up with plan like this and not come up with 'what's in it for them' in Russia or Eastern Europe. Not even now.

This is not a phenomenon unique to Russia. What was in it for the United States to drop 108,000 tons of bombs over Cambodia? What is in it still for the US to continue having troops in Afghanistan?

Powerful countries have agendas. I cannot think of any entity that names itself a "country" that does not.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#68

Post by toyg »

xxpor wrote: post #54
gen220 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poetically, this universe you've created reminds me of the story of the Berlin metro during the Cold War. Prior to the division of the city, the metro system spanned the whole city, and was rebuilt to functioning capacity in the aftermath of WW II. Once it became necessary to construct a controlled border between the NATO and Soviet sectors, they eventually erected barriers on the tracks; creating two disconnected tr…

Were the armed guards there to keep the western trains from stopping or for keeping easterners from escaping via the tunnels?

Don’t forget keeping spies at bay. Berlin was a notorious hotbed of espionage, for obvious reasons, and East German authorities had already enough trouble controlling the existing checkpoints without having to add new ones.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#69

Post by Shivetya »

Koshkin wrote: post #38
mantas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would planned economy do with hands not needed anymore? :) Even with totally unproductive economy, USSR had lots and lots of bullshit jobs just to keep people employed. What would USSR do with tons of unemployed people? Create fake jobs? Or what... let people find out what they'd like to do and let them start private initiatives?!?

No problem there: an efficient planned economy would have no trouble whatsoever also planning for bullshit jobs, efficiently. Incidentally, does not look like bullshit jobs were specific to the USSR, they are indeed everywhere .

the issue has always been that there are far more people than you expect who wish to only consume hence why these states only worked for as long as they did because authoritarian governments have little in the way of limits when it comes to compelling people to work.

you would need an excessive abundance to accommodate the large numbers of people who do not believe they must contribute. I am not saying they won't work and produce wealth, those that do will only do so for themselves

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#70

Post by toyg »

keiferski wrote: post #44
SamReidHughes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, Switzerland got a three-peat of Nobel Prizes in Medicine in 1948, 1949, and 1950. It makes sense that a guy like Welles would value art and throw scorn on technology. Stability is necessary for investment and the build-up of capital; it isn't necessary to make a painting.

Renaissance Italy was also a hotspot for the development of technology, far more than Switzerland at the time. A lot of this development was driven by warfare and enabled by achievements in the arts: perspective, for example, enabled far more detailed schematic drawings. Or, the numerous architectural innovations which enabled buildings like the Duomo to be constructed. Most of the best-known Italian renaissance arti…

Renaissance Italy also invented double-entry accounting, effectively creating a new discipline. And then, of course, gave us Galileo Galilei.
Post reply on HN