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The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

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Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#21
post #18
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had other protocols. TCP/IP won exactly because it was technically superior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Wars

Thanks. I haven't thought of X.25 in 25 years.

Heh I'm currently working on a toy X.25 stack implementation as a side project

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#24

"Red Plenty" is a "historical fiction" novel that is an easy read and deals with this subject. Glushkov is the main character.

It's extremely anti-soviet, almost propagandistically so. It wouldnt be out of place as a work made at the request of Voice of America, although the author is an Englishman.

Should the novel be pro-soviet?

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#25
post #8

It would have been so cool if the USSR had its own internet and shared it with China and China were still running it now because wouldn't it be great to stop hearing about how people think firewalling the entire Chinese IP space will keep hackers out. Also a parallel internet built on something other than TCP/IP would promote competition to see which internet design is technically superior. But realistically nobody w…

We had other protocols. TCP/IP won exactly because it was technically superior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Wars

Somewhat related, Netheads vs. Bellheads https://www.wired.com/1996/10/atm-3/

I briefly worked at a place fully dominated by Bellheads early in my career. They were bemoaning IP and holding on to ATM stuff as late as 2001. I'm told that the last of their tribe (after I left) fought off VoIP as a passing fad well into the 2000s.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#26

So a bit like a capitalist entrepreneur who needs to have a brilliant idea and be a great salesman, the scientists in USSR had to have a cunning social skills to push their ideas through layers of un-interested bureaucracy. A Sisyphian task that would just cause them to become disengaged. That's how that society got its alcoholics, poetry evenings and other sublimation hobbies.

The only major difference I see is that the entrepreneur aims to make money from the innovation as opposed to trying to improve society. Money was clearly a better motivator though.

The major difference is there're multiple investors in capitalist society. Essentially they compete with each other and more successful investors get to invest in more stuff.

Meanwhile in SSRS-style society, there's a single point of approval. There's no market of ideas/thinking. It's set by power games, usually not related to the subject at all.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#27
post #16

So a bit like a capitalist entrepreneur who needs to have a brilliant idea and be a great salesman, the scientists in USSR had to have a cunning social skills to push their ideas through layers of un-interested bureaucracy. A Sisyphian task that would just cause them to become disengaged. That's how that society got its alcoholics, poetry evenings and other sublimation hobbies.

One of my pet theories is that economic growth is surprisingly poorly correlated to economic or social systems except for one thing: Stability. Bring stability, and people learn the mechanisms that works for their society, and overcome surprisingly large differences in type of obstacles. Be it dealing with the vagaries of the free market, or how to maneuver a Soviet-style bureaucracy. It's in fact almost depressing h…

I think your oversimplifying here. I think economic growth is strongly tied to stability but it's also strongly tied to mechanisms. Pricing as a vehicle for measuring supply and demand simply outstrips everything else we've tried. Even this article mentions how difficult it is to centrally plan supply and demand and how large the bureaucracy needs to be. Perhaps some technocratic socialism could create a computerized bureaucracy large enough to solve this problem somewhat well, but I still think computer models are going to be inferior to actual markets. While markets do have plenty of imperfections they are kind of like democracy, the worst system for supply and demand except for all the other ones. As for why having good systems of supply and demand affects innovation dramatically the short answer is that it forces innovation to conform to an approximation of useful (creating demand) rather than just novel (which is what happens in a lot of purely academic projects). Non-capitalist systems have also done poorly at creating competition and competition seems to be a central force in generating quality (in fact the biggest failure mode of capitalism seems to be anti-competitive monopolies).

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#28
post #17
post #3

Soviet bureaucracy wanted to transform itself into capitalist oligarchs by seizing and privatizing the state enterprises instead of creating an open, democratic and scientific economic planning system. Trotsky was right.

> Soviet bureaucracy wanted to transform Quite the opposite: soviet bureaucracy didn't want to transform anything, they were more concerned with maintaining the status quo for as long as they could. This is why the system turned out to be too rigid to withstand the pressures of the modern world. On the other hand, think about how much the planned economy would benefit from the wide-spread automation and access to mod…

What would planned economy do with hands not needed anymore? :) Even with totally unproductive economy, USSR had lots and lots of bullshit jobs just to keep people employed. What would USSR do with tons of unemployed people? Create fake jobs? Or what... let people find out what they'd like to do and let them start private initiatives?!?

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#29
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my pet theories is that economic growth is surprisingly poorly correlated to economic or social systems except for one thing: Stability. Bring stability, and people learn the mechanisms that works for their society, and overcome surprisingly large differences in type of obstacles. Be it dealing with the vagaries of the free market, or how to maneuver a Soviet-style bureaucracy. It's in fact almost depressing h…

“In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.” - Orson Welles, The Third Man, 1949 Ancient Greece was also exceptionally politically unstable and yet produced the fou…

Meanwhile, Switzerland got a three-peat of Nobel Prizes in Medicine in 1948, 1949, and 1950.

It makes sense that a guy like Welles would value art and throw scorn on technology. Stability is necessary for investment and the build-up of capital; it isn't necessary to make a painting.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#30
post #7

Unrelated, but fun: the .su (soviet union) domain is still active and running. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.su http://www.fid.su/

I'm fond of the site hosting http://diafilmy.su/7209-sojuz-appolon.html among others (use arrow keys to advance the filmstrip).
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