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The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

calvertjournal.com

11–20 of 187 posts

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#11

So a bit like a capitalist entrepreneur who needs to have a brilliant idea and be a great salesman, the scientists in USSR had to have a cunning social skills to push their ideas through layers of un-interested bureaucracy. A Sisyphian task that would just cause them to become disengaged. That's how that society got its alcoholics, poetry evenings and other sublimation hobbies.

The article made me think that the guy who rejected the proposition rejected it because it would have lessened the importance of his ministry as most of the job within could have been automated if the project turned out to be successful.

I'd also say that great social skills are just as important today. Society is not meritocratic, you can have best idea, the best solution to a problem if you can't sell it or react appropriately to criticism (even to you coworkers) you're going to be frustrated. I'd that sometimes include being "cunning" if the person you're talking to is not being honest you don't have to be either.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#12

It would have been so cool if the USSR had its own internet and shared it with China and China were still running it now because wouldn't it be great to stop hearing about how people think firewalling the entire Chinese IP space will keep hackers out. Also a parallel internet built on something other than TCP/IP would promote competition to see which internet design is technically superior. But realistically nobody w…

They would just have gateways that translated between the two protocols. Think changeover in railway gauges. Realistically, one would become the standard and swamp everything else. Look at how slow IPv6 adoption has been.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#14

It would have been so cool if the USSR had its own internet and shared it with China and China were still running it now because wouldn't it be great to stop hearing about how people think firewalling the entire Chinese IP space will keep hackers out. Also a parallel internet built on something other than TCP/IP would promote competition to see which internet design is technically superior. But realistically nobody w…

Poetically, this universe you've created reminds me of the story of the Berlin metro during the Cold War.

Prior to the division of the city, the metro system spanned the whole city, and was rebuilt to functioning capacity in the aftermath of WW II. Once it became necessary to construct a controlled border between the NATO and Soviet sectors, they eventually erected barriers on the tracks; creating two disconnected transportation graphs.

Except! There were some lines that began and ended in "West Berlin", but needed to pass through a couple of stations in "East Berlin;" these were allowed to continue operating, but the train conductors were not permitted to stop at the "Easte Berlin" stations under any circumstances. The Geisterbahnhöfe (ghost stations) were patrolled by armed guards. This system persisted from the early 1960s until 1989.

Both sides made improvements to their respective pieces of the U-bahn, to service the local populations. But they never made any changes that would make a reunion impossible (for example, changing the track widths, or signalling technology). When the wall came down, the system united into a fully-functional whole remarkably quickly.

Imagine if the internet partitioned between "east" and "west"; but, in order for the internet backbone to reach India for example, it would first need to pass through Russia or China. I wonder if something similar would happen!

Editorializing, it's fascinating to see how these systems, that are designed to (more or less indiscriminately) connect people, behave when they are suddenly coerced to instead keep people apart in unnatural ways. It never seems sustainable, and the separation seems to revert so easily once the coercion is lifted. It's kind of a hopeful story for humanity, I think.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#15

So a bit like a capitalist entrepreneur who needs to have a brilliant idea and be a great salesman, the scientists in USSR had to have a cunning social skills to push their ideas through layers of un-interested bureaucracy. A Sisyphian task that would just cause them to become disengaged. That's how that society got its alcoholics, poetry evenings and other sublimation hobbies.

The only major difference I see is that the entrepreneur aims to make money from the innovation as opposed to trying to improve society. Money was clearly a better motivator though.

Yeah, the "individual motivation" bug still really hasn't been fixed in most pure non-capitalist economic system proposals IMO. That's why I think a blend works best -- like what you see a lot in Europe.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#16

So a bit like a capitalist entrepreneur who needs to have a brilliant idea and be a great salesman, the scientists in USSR had to have a cunning social skills to push their ideas through layers of un-interested bureaucracy. A Sisyphian task that would just cause them to become disengaged. That's how that society got its alcoholics, poetry evenings and other sublimation hobbies.

One of my pet theories is that economic growth is surprisingly poorly correlated to economic or social systems except for one thing: Stability.

Bring stability, and people learn the mechanisms that works for their society, and overcome surprisingly large differences in type of obstacles. Be it dealing with the vagaries of the free market, or how to maneuver a Soviet-style bureaucracy.

It's in fact almost depressing how little effect even quiet massive political changes appears to have on growth on "just" national level relative to the effects of larger global trends; but an alternative view is that it shows humans abilities to work around messed up political limitations.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#17
post #3

Soviet bureaucracy wanted to transform itself into capitalist oligarchs by seizing and privatizing the state enterprises instead of creating an open, democratic and scientific economic planning system. Trotsky was right.

> Soviet bureaucracy wanted to transform

Quite the opposite: soviet bureaucracy didn't want to transform anything, they were more concerned with maintaining the status quo for as long as they could. This is why the system turned out to be too rigid to withstand the pressures of the modern world.

On the other hand, think about how much the planned economy would benefit from the wide-spread automation and access to modern computing and communications.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#18
post #8

It would have been so cool if the USSR had its own internet and shared it with China and China were still running it now because wouldn't it be great to stop hearing about how people think firewalling the entire Chinese IP space will keep hackers out. Also a parallel internet built on something other than TCP/IP would promote competition to see which internet design is technically superior. But realistically nobody w…

We had other protocols. TCP/IP won exactly because it was technically superior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Wars

Thanks. I haven't thought of X.25 in 25 years.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#19

"Red Plenty" is a "historical fiction" novel that is an easy read and deals with this subject. Glushkov is the main character.

It's extremely anti-soviet, almost propagandistically so. It wouldnt be out of place as a work made at the request of Voice of America, although the author is an Englishman.

Re: The Soviet web: the tale of how the USSR almost invented the internet (2017)

#20
post #16

So a bit like a capitalist entrepreneur who needs to have a brilliant idea and be a great salesman, the scientists in USSR had to have a cunning social skills to push their ideas through layers of un-interested bureaucracy. A Sisyphian task that would just cause them to become disengaged. That's how that society got its alcoholics, poetry evenings and other sublimation hobbies.

One of my pet theories is that economic growth is surprisingly poorly correlated to economic or social systems except for one thing: Stability. Bring stability, and people learn the mechanisms that works for their society, and overcome surprisingly large differences in type of obstacles. Be it dealing with the vagaries of the free market, or how to maneuver a Soviet-style bureaucracy. It's in fact almost depressing h…

“In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.”

- Orson Welles, The Third Man, 1949

Ancient Greece was also exceptionally politically unstable and yet produced the foundations of Western civilization.

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