Just curious, does work at these companies require any algorithm design skills or is it usual web/app/database development work?
Hiring Without Whiteboards
181–190 of 471 posts
Re: Hiring Without Whiteboards
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hate take-home projects more than I hate whiteboard interviews. I think the best approach would be giving the candidate a broken app and have they debug it live or in a take-home debug-and-fix or debug-and-improve exercise. Could also have some refactor assignment. Has any company tried something like this before?
Take-home projects are frustrating when they basically just say "Build an app that does $xyz", and we'll be in touch if we like it. Obviously no one is going to submit an app that doesn't accomplish the primary task. I feel like you get judged more-so on how you decided to get the initial app up and running, which likely isn't something you'll need to do working there.
> Obviously no one is going to submit an app that doesn't accomplish the primary task.
I would have guessed the same thing before my company started doing homework interviews. But in fact, the ones that don't get to the finish line are sometimes the most interesting ones to review, and they aren't an automatic no-hire. (And we say so explicitly, if a bit more diplomatically, in our instructions.) If someone hands us clean, well-thought-out code and it's clear that they honored our time limit and just didn't quite get there before the clock ran out, we'll still talk to them.
Re: Hiring Without Whiteboards
#183We use a 3 step process, sans whiteboard: 1. First interview, the candidate interviews us. What market we serve, what our development processes are, what our technology stack is. If they express interest by being prepared and asking good questions, we send them home with 2. a programming task. Choose 1 of 5 tasks. The tasks are not abstract problems or puzzles, but come out of the designs we've implemented. We ask fo…
Do you have some kind of a screening process before the first interview?
Re: Hiring Without Whiteboards
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the future, when looking at github becomes a standard hiring practice, companies will start going full closed source so that their talent can’t jump ship.
My former employer, a Fortune 500 company, wouldn't let me volunteer for a globally recognized charity because the boilerplate agreement the charity required volunteers sign, stated that IP created as a volunteer belonged to them, and my employer considered that everything within or outside work hours was theirs. Not that I was volunteering as a programmer anyway. My current employer doesn't have explicit rules that…
I was under the impression that this kind of interpretation of employment contracts was more or less illegal (or, at the very least, unenforceable) in many states (I'm assuming you're US, programming in Fortune 500, so maybe not applicable?). Sort of fits into the same kind vein as certain non-compete clauses, where companies put them in, but they'd be tossed out pretty quickly in court should things actually reach that point.
If it's not on employer-owned equipment during core working hours, then I believe it's pretty difficult for an employer to enforce that kind of thing. I don't know how important to you working at that charity was or participating in open-source now is to you, but if you're willing to take a harder line of telling rather than asking, you might find that when push comes to shove, there might not be much they can do without drastically escalating the situation (not always an organization's favorite thing to do, even if they can technically win, which they might not be able to).
Obvious disclaimer about being a non-expert on this sort of thing, but really just wanted to point out that the first answer in this situation may not actually be the final one.
Re: Hiring Without Whiteboards
#185Best way to avoid this BS is to be introduced by an established insider to help bypass this.
Re: Hiring Without Whiteboards
#186FAAG all use white board - there must be a reason.
I just do not understand - if you are a competent programmer, what are you afraid of white board Interview?
Show your ability or stop whining!
Re: Hiring Without Whiteboards
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have a small child and a full time job. It's really not very feasible for me to make time to do a "real project", paid or not. Especially if I'm interviewing with multiple companies.
It seems that you and a lot of people look at hiring as a zero sum game, because there can only be one standard. If it doesn't include someone, but changing it to include them would exclude you, then tough cookies. That's a very depressing outlook.
This so many times.
I prefer take home projects as opposed to whiteboarding, because my personal situation better allows for it - no wife or children, preference for building things, no NDA at my current job, and so forth. For me specifically I would prefer take home projects followed by a debriefing where I explain my design decisions over solving whiteboard problems. But that's just me. Why can't there be multiple accepted ways of interviewing instead of forcing everyone through a whiteboard gate, if whiteboarding isn't the best way for you to prove your competency?
At least we have lists of companies with different hiring processes as in TFA, so there is a small amount of choice. But we're still dependent on the goodwill of companies to make their hiring processes more tolerable.
Re: Hiring Without Whiteboards
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't mind the idea of take home exercises as long as I have an actual chance of getting in. If i'm really serious about joining a company and the many months/years to come with them, I can probably spare a day to show it.
Agreed. It's always surprising to read people complaining about spending even 8 hours on a take-home problem in the comfort of their home, with no one looking over their shoulder, finished at their leisure. Meanwhile, anyone serious about applying to the same company wouldn't hesitate to take PTO and leave work to go on-site for a similar amount of time for an interview.
The problem might be that you might need to interview for alot of positions and having a homework for each would add up.
The homework is no cost for the employer and you are not sure how serious about you they are when you do it (if it is in the start of the process) so I wouldn't bother if I had an alternatives to go for.
Re: Hiring Without Whiteboards
#189We use a 3 step process, sans whiteboard: 1. First interview, the candidate interviews us. What market we serve, what our development processes are, what our technology stack is. If they express interest by being prepared and asking good questions, we send them home with 2. a programming task. Choose 1 of 5 tasks. The tasks are not abstract problems or puzzles, but come out of the designs we've implemented. We ask fo…
A lot of people in other comments below are criticizing take-home tasks, but honestly, this sounds nice and balanced. I'd much rather have a couple days to think about a problem and a few hours to implement it over having to take time off work, pay to go all the way to your company at a time that works for both of us, and deal with a white board interview. It's a way bigger investment. So long as it's a small, confined, practical problem and not a full app, this sounds good.
Plus, if your company gives someone what they might think are ridiculous questions or they realize it's just not what they're good at, they can easily reject proceeding any farther with the interview. If someone walks into a crappy whiteboard interview, they feel kind of stuck. Seems to be better for both sides. Less pressure.
Re: Hiring Without Whiteboards
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed. It's always surprising to read people complaining about spending even 8 hours on a take-home problem in the comfort of their home, with no one looking over their shoulder, finished at their leisure. Meanwhile, anyone serious about applying to the same company wouldn't hesitate to take PTO and leave work to go on-site for a similar amount of time for an interview.
If you do the take-home problem, do you get to skip the interview? My understanding was that it might, at most, replace a 1-hour whiteboarding interview. The one time I did a take-home problem for an interview, I spent a whole weekend day on it (which felt hard, given that I was making my wife watch our child all day), and then I still had to spend a whole day on in-person interviews. And then they didn't even ask me…
The homework was maybe a capcha to waste your time to show your are acctually applying.