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ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

bbc.co.uk

81–90 of 466 posts

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#81
post #39
post #7

I am going to need some help on this one as my knowledge on physics is limited: What makes scientists believe that the solution to nuclear fusion power is only a matter of scale? I desperately want nuclear fusion to work because nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone. It's also 500% more important…

I'm also a fusion power fanboy but >nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone This is just not true, there's no way you can say this. Solar costs are going down massively. Hydro is dirt cheap already. So renewables can absolutely be part of an energetic transition in the near future, while fusion is a…

> Hydro is dirt cheap already.

Apparently, hydro produces a significant amount of greenhouse gases within the first 100 years or so, resulting from decaying plant matter and so on.

There was a story on HN a few years ago, IIRC it listed hydro providing 4% of the world's electricity while being responsible for 1% greenhouse gases.

I couldn't find the original story, but I didn't look too hard. Here's the first other source I found:

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/66/11/949/275427...

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#82
post #75
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is just not true, there's no way you can say this. Solar costs are going down massively. Hydro is dirt cheap already. So renewables can absolutely be part of an energetic transition in the near future, while fusion is at best many decades away. So while I think fusion energy has the potential to transform energy generation, and by extent everything about our life, it's wrong to assume renewables aren't probably…

> We need nuclear to meet baseload because the storage requirements (for PV particularly, by far the largest renewable) would be absurd without it. The problem with statements like this is that when they're proven wrong (they aren't always, but when they are), it's often because of some massive underlying shift that makes a bunch of assumptions wrong, leading to a wrong prediction. If we envision a system where not o…

*useful and financially competitive

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#83
post #33

Sorry I'm a layman at best on the subject, buts whats the difference between this project and, for example, W7-X?

To get fusion there is a couple of ways: There is gravitational confinement (that is how stars do it, but it is impractically large for humans), there is inertial confinement (get enough energy out before it explodes, but that only works for hydrogen bombs and NIF, not for a reactor) and magnetic confinement (that is what we intend to use for reactors).

Magnetic confinement works because a plasma consists of charged particles that gyrate around the magnetic field lines. So (to first order) they can not escape across field lines. But they can move along the field lines and hit the end of the device. The particles move fast, so simply making a linear device long enough is hard. So the next idea was to bend the magnetic field into a torus (the shape of a donut), because that way there is no end to the magnetic field lines. Unfortunately that configuration is unstable, the plasma donut will bend and twist until it hits a wall, stops being a plasma and falls to the ground. There is basically three option out of this problem:

1.) Tokamaks [1] such as ITER. Here we induce an additional current inside the plasma that goes around the hole of the donut. That produces a small additional field that stabilized the current. But driving that current can be hard (using what is called a plasma transformer work only for a limited times, but AFAIK that is not the first limit on a discharge that ITER will hit, wall heating limits single plasma "shots" to shorter times anyway). The upside is that the design is rather simple, which implies you don't need millions of core hours to design and the fields coils are reasonably easy to produce.

2.) Stellarators [2] such as W7-X. Here the field coils that produce the field lines in the donut are intentionally twisted to produce a more complicated magnetic field. The upside is that we do not need the current in the plasma and get better performance (for a device of similar size), but the design of the field coils is hard (impossible back in the 60ies and still really hard even with modern computers) and the production of the coil is not simple either. You can actually include "producability" as an optimization goal along with plasma performance in your design code, but even then you will have to build a large number of different coil designs.

3.) Active control. It takes some time for the plasma donut to bend and twist. Typically a few milliseconds. So if you stick a large number of sensors and computer controlled coils around the plasma you might be able to continuously keep the plasma confined, just like balancing a pencil on its tip. This was of course utterly unimaginable back in the 60ies, and even today there is mayor problems. Sensors aren't fast enough, optimal (or even good) control algorithms are unknown and rapidly ramping megaamperes in the control coils is hard if you don't want to rip them out of the device accidentally. And you probably only have ~ 10 failed attempts before the wall of the vacuum device is compromised and you need a new device. Consequently there is some small scale research on that (sorry I don't have a cool link handy), but nobody is trying that on large devices for now.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokamak

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellarator

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#84
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also a fusion power fanboy but >nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone This is just not true, there's no way you can say this. Solar costs are going down massively. Hydro is dirt cheap already. So renewables can absolutely be part of an energetic transition in the near future, while fusion is a…

>This is just not true A lot of smart people would beg to differ.

A lot of smart people would beg to differ.

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#85
post #7

I am going to need some help on this one as my knowledge on physics is limited: What makes scientists believe that the solution to nuclear fusion power is only a matter of scale? I desperately want nuclear fusion to work because nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone. It's also 500% more important…

Containment energy is proportional to surface area, while power produced is proportional to volume. Thus, scaling up should make it easier to generate energy.

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#86
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think solar is going to work. As you say, it might take up to 50 years to crack the case on nuclear fusion. I argue that it might take up to 50 years for governments and companies around the world to even begin cooperating in a fashion such that they make a dent in carbon-based energy sources at the global scale using solar. The reason why solar is not going to work mostly is because there is no legitimate m…

Even if we deploy batteries, wind and solar in an amount needed to mitigate a climate change crisis, the amount of mining and industrial activity that would take would greatly poison our planet in other ways. In terms of "other stuff you need to do" per MW none of these come close to touching fission. Fusion, being much cleaner than fission would be a holy grail of clean cheap energy. I hope it only takes 50yr to fig…

What part of a wind turbine 'greatly poisons iur planet"?

Its an electric generator on a mast. How is it more poisonos than any other industrial object or consumer device?

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#87
post #78
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also a fusion power fanboy but >nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone This is just not true, there's no way you can say this. Solar costs are going down massively. Hydro is dirt cheap already. So renewables can absolutely be part of an energetic transition in the near future, while fusion is a…

> Hydro is dirt cheap already Said HN reader as the Three Gorges dam was about to burst in China, submerging millions of households.

[citation needed]

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#88
post #39
post #7

I am going to need some help on this one as my knowledge on physics is limited: What makes scientists believe that the solution to nuclear fusion power is only a matter of scale? I desperately want nuclear fusion to work because nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone. It's also 500% more important…

I'm also a fusion power fanboy but >nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone This is just not true, there's no way you can say this. Solar costs are going down massively. Hydro is dirt cheap already. So renewables can absolutely be part of an energetic transition in the near future, while fusion is a…

I would like to see some models on how solar power could work in northern cities, or honestly any city. The NYC metro area has over 23 million residents and there is essentially zero space for a solar farm. In the winter it's cloudy almost all day and there are only 9 hours of sunlight.

Rooftop solar is an option but the models I have seen show a theoretical max around 1,200 MW which is about 1/30th of the NYC metro area electricity requirements.

I just don't see how solar is even close to being viable for anything outside of small cities with access to massive swathes of empty land.

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#89
post #39
post #7

I am going to need some help on this one as my knowledge on physics is limited: What makes scientists believe that the solution to nuclear fusion power is only a matter of scale? I desperately want nuclear fusion to work because nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone. It's also 500% more important…

I'm also a fusion power fanboy but >nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone This is just not true, there's no way you can say this. Solar costs are going down massively. Hydro is dirt cheap already. So renewables can absolutely be part of an energetic transition in the near future, while fusion is a…

Hydro can actually be worse than coal in terms of ghgs. All depends on what they flood. If it's forest, it's bad.

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#90
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is sound, but the issue is also budget allocation: financial resources are not infinite, and we must choose how to allocate them.

There’s so much things to divert budget from to fuel energy research. Completely unrealistic, but think luxury cars, football player’s salaries, just to name a few.

Coal subsidies …
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