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ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

bbc.co.uk

21–30 of 466 posts

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#21

I think fusion is cool, but I also think it distracts from more important and promising approaches to clean power. No one has ever demonstrated a self-sustaining, net positive fusion reaction. It will probably take >30 years to make this technology cheap , safe and reliable and another >20 years to deploy it at scale. We don't have 50 years to wait on clean energy, we need it today. We should be focusing our attentio…

I do not think solar is going to work. As you say, it might take up to 50 years to crack the case on nuclear fusion. I argue that it might take up to 50 years for governments and companies around the world to even begin cooperating in a fashion such that they make a dent in carbon-based energy sources at the global scale using solar.

The reason why solar is not going to work mostly is because there is no legitimate mass installation of batteries that can handle the demand of energy. And the reason why the batteries cannot handle the demand of energy is because governments are not serious about deploying more, and people are already comfortable with the quality of life they already have, so neither are going to step up to make this work. And to be fair, why should the average citizen impose restrictions on themselves to solve this crisis? It's not realistic. Governments are supposed to be the ones to make these initiatives. Analogy: I hate having to pay for taxes, but I like that the government gets it from everyone, so that it can implement common services that benefit a lot of people, which wouldn't be possible otherwise.

The only way is nuclear fission because, as you said, it is proven to be safe and reliable. However, the people have spoken: They do not want "dangerous" nuclear reactors around, even if those impressions were formed by reactors designed and built in the 1950s-1960s. I personally think this is a shut case. There is no convincing of the people to go to nuclear fission anymore.

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#22

I think fusion is cool, but I also think it distracts from more important and promising approaches to clean power. No one has ever demonstrated a self-sustaining, net positive fusion reaction. It will probably take >30 years to make this technology cheap , safe and reliable and another >20 years to deploy it at scale. We don't have 50 years to wait on clean energy, we need it today. We should be focusing our attentio…

Net-positive was achieved in 2013. As far as I can remember, ITER is a test-bed for economical and scalable nuclear fusion.

Also, the corporate world (at least here in Texas, of all places) is perfectly capable of rolling out state-scale renewable power (wind).

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#23
At this point I've got a lot more hope in the MIT/Commonwealth Fusion Systems approach with REBCO magnets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0KuAx1COEk

At this point it looks like ITER is hampered by it's relatively old supeconductor technology (ultra low temp/moderate field strength traditional magnets vs high temp/high field REBCO magnets).

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#25
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One objective is a Q value of greater than 10 for a moment. And a steady Q value of 5. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER#Objectives

Maintain a fusion pulse for up to 8 minutes What does this mean?

I am not a physicist, but AFAIK the problem is to maintain the plasma in a steady state. This could mean that they will try to keep the plasma stable for 8 minutes until it collapses.

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#26

I think fusion is cool, but I also think it distracts from more important and promising approaches to clean power. No one has ever demonstrated a self-sustaining, net positive fusion reaction. It will probably take >30 years to make this technology cheap , safe and reliable and another >20 years to deploy it at scale. We don't have 50 years to wait on clean energy, we need it today. We should be focusing our attentio…

I agree we should look at multiple possible paths for renewable energy, but to say that they shouldn’t work on this, is a bit far fetched. This assumes the researchers working on fusion can work on the other renewable energies, when that’s typically not the case with highly specialized fields. Further, estimating the time it takes for advancement with the described time magnitude is a frivolous pursuit, if you put an…

Your argument is sound, but the issue is also budget allocation: financial resources are not infinite, and we must choose how to allocate them.

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#27
post #7

I am going to need some help on this one as my knowledge on physics is limited: What makes scientists believe that the solution to nuclear fusion power is only a matter of scale? I desperately want nuclear fusion to work because nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone. It's also 500% more important…

>looming energy crisis

Where do you see the crisis? Unless you want to provide everybody with an abundance of energy, people need food and shelter, some electricity for electronics and some transportation once in a while.

Of course, any amount of energy can be burned for simulations and bitcoins but that's simply limited by supply. There will be a crisis when bitcoins and simulations are more valuable than human lives, but that's not changed by offering more energy.

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maintain a fusion pulse for up to 8 minutes What does this mean?

I am not a physicist, but AFAIK the problem is to maintain the plasma in a steady state. This could mean that they will try to keep the plasma stable for 8 minutes until it collapses.

The characteristic frequencies in the plasma are much higher. Kilohertz and up. The steady state will be reached within seconds, so to the plasma 8 minutes is basically "infinity". But at that point the all the power that is leaking out of the plasma (50MW of heating times a Q of 10 implies that the plasma will output half a GW) will have heated the wall to the limit (and that is with active cooling of the walls). One could beef up the cooling to run at actual steady state (for an hour, or a day or a year), but it would not tell you much extra, so they didn't bother.

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#29
post #7

I am going to need some help on this one as my knowledge on physics is limited: What makes scientists believe that the solution to nuclear fusion power is only a matter of scale? I desperately want nuclear fusion to work because nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone. It's also 500% more important…

> nuclear power is the only realistic way to solve the looming energy crisis of the 21st century while still maintaining the same standard of living for everyone

I assume by "energy crisis" you mean "how do we continue to generate energy while drastically decreasing climate effects"? Because if we're not worried about climate there's no looming energy crisis. There's plenty of oil, gas, and coal out there still.

And so if we're talking about climate stuff... is nuclear really the only way? Renewables continue to get cheaper and scale up; grid storage with batteries and pumped hydro is already a thing, and plenty of other storage methods are in development, it seems unlikely not a single one of them will turn out to be useful?

Plus, carbon capture for fossil fuel electrical generation is possible, just expensive, and not all fossil fuels are equally bad for the climate, so possibly carbon capture + cleaner fossils could be part of the future, too?

I think people have been saying "it has to be nuclear, so it has to be fusion" since way before we had the alternative sources (and storage) we now have, and are continuing to develop. Is it just a trope now, that maybe should be revisited?

(I find the possibility of fusion power really exciting and interesting. I'm just not sure it's necessary)

Re: ITER: World's largest nuclear fusion project begins assembly

#30
ITER won't be commercially viable. After ITER comes DEMO, which is itself a decades-long project. DEMO won't demonstrate electricity generation until 2048: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEMOnstration_Power_Station#Ti...

In my mind, that means we need to see deployment of Gen 4 fission reactors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor) commercially, to bridge the gaps between a decline in coal-fired plants and the potential of renewables.

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