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Sledding athletes are taking their lives

nytimes.com

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Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#201

Post by yk »

etrautmann wrote: post #41
nimih wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? To me (a layperson in the physics of helmets and brains), they would seem to be quite directly related, especially when the cause of the gees is not related to an impact.

The helmet is a light mass, which can move relative to the head, and experience drastically higher g-forces for very short times. Sampling an accelerometer at kHz rates as a helmet is vibrating (without translating all of the vibrational energy into the head), will measure larger peak G's than the head experiences. For this reason, when studying head impact for football players, they mount the accelerometers in the m…

Yes, but notice that the shock goes sled -> spine -> head -> helmet in sledding and other player -> helmet -> head in football. So, strapping an accelerometer onto the helmet looks quite a bit better for sledding. (And especially for a first measurement.)

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#202

Post by NoOneNew »

usgroup wrote: post #101
gnramires wrote: post #19

This seems totally unacceptable. We should stop having this sport in the Olympics (implicitly supporting this madness) -- of course athletes are free to do as they chose, but we cannot encourage such pointless self-destruction and misery. An alternative to save the sport is completely redesign it to limit maximum accelerations. Usually injuries follow power laws so I doubt even that much reduction would be necessary…

I think the Olympics is just generally physically bad for the athletes. Runners, weightlifters, wrestlers, boxers, rowers, etc all these folks end up working so close o the edge of sustainable human tolerance and capacity that’s it’s unlikely they are not constantly going over it.

I find it extremely weird when people complain that athletes should stop their sport because "it's bad for them". So is office work. 8 hours of sitting, back pain and the repetitive stress on hands causing arthritis issues isn't that much better. I'd say it's just as physically bad for people, except office work is a life unfulfilled and boring. Office work isn't exactly something you can brag about. I'd rather have bad knees being a competitive runner than having bad knees because I sit too much.

There's inherent risk in simply living. If people want to have fulfilled lives by pushing their body's to the limit, that's their choice and to be honest, a choice we should all be encouraged to try in our lives to some capacity. Also, to pretend they're unaware of the risk is ridiculous. It's not like the Olympics is the only competitive arena for these disciplines.

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#203

Post by fermienrico »

NoOneNew wrote: post #202
usgroup wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Olympics is just generally physically bad for the athletes. Runners, weightlifters, wrestlers, boxers, rowers, etc all these folks end up working so close o the edge of sustainable human tolerance and capacity that’s it’s unlikely they are not constantly going over it.

I find it extremely weird when people complain that athletes should stop their sport because "it's bad for them". So is office work. 8 hours of sitting, back pain and the repetitive stress on hands causing arthritis issues isn't that much better. I'd say it's just as physically bad for people, except office work is a life unfulfilled and boring. Office work isn't exactly something you can brag about. I'd rather have…

Agreed, we should not sympathize on behalf of them where they're free to choose to do something else if they wanted. This is a concious choice and it is in the same vein as people would support legalization of recreational drugs - let people make their own decisions.

Wanna rock climb and take the risk? We should allow it just like we allow sky diving, climbing the Everest and sailing.

This kind of thinking leads to degradation of the society where no one will be allowed to take risks.

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#204

Post by mindslight »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #13

> On Feb. 22, 2013, Morris attached an accelerometer to his helmet, then launched his body down a 1,500-meter track at the sliding center in Whistler, British Columbia, which is considered the fastest track in the world and was a venue for the 2010 Winter Olympics. Bobsleigh has been a feature of the Winter Olympics since 1924 [1]. Yet it might have taken until 2013 for someone to measure its g force on its athletes'…

I once went on a bobsled ride on an old Olympic track. 4-person bobsled, two professionals controlling the sled, two passengers. I think we didn't go into the final turn properly, and the sled rode high and the brakeman (rear) hit his helmet on the side of the track. He was a bit dizzy afterwards, but otherwise it wasn't treated as a big deal. If this kind of thing just happens on relaxed tourist runs, I can only imagine what's normalized in training and competition.

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#205

Post by soperj »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #13

> On Feb. 22, 2013, Morris attached an accelerometer to his helmet, then launched his body down a 1,500-meter track at the sliding center in Whistler, British Columbia, which is considered the fastest track in the world and was a venue for the 2010 Winter Olympics. Bobsleigh has been a feature of the Winter Olympics since 1924 [1]. Yet it might have taken until 2013 for someone to measure its g force on its athletes'…

That bobsleigh track was designed specifically to be faster than any other. They had to close part of it for the actual Olympics because someone died in training right before hand. They went for records instead of safety.

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#206

Post by fermienrico »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #195
erfgh wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about we let people decide on their won what they want to do with their lives?

Generally I'd agree, but there is some rationality to the idea that we should not encourage and promote certain activities because of their inherent dangers. Smoking, for instance.

There is a distinction here that needs to be emphasized. We should absolutely allow people to smoke: what we should limit is the amount of money that goes into marketing, promotion, the big Philip Morris, government lobbying, and a whole bunch of backend work that goes into getting people addicted to Tobacco.

Simply restricting people from smoking is a blanket encroachment of personal liberty and should not be IMO entertained. As far as it doesn't damage others (like Guns), we should allow it.

I think warning labels on Cigarette boxes is an excellent idea - it informs the consumer of facts of consuming the product, whether they choose to do it or not is up to them.

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#207

Post by alex_duf »

nabla9 wrote: post #98

TBI seem to have huge consequences that are not connected to the TBI. In the US 2% of the general population is arrested annually. Of those who have had TBI roughly third. A similar one-third rate was found in a community sample of children and adolescents with TBI. In death row inmates it's even more common to have received TBI in childhood. https://www.brainline.org/article/traumatic-brain-injury-pri... https://www…

could that be the other way around? If you're more rowdy, you're more likely to have had a traumatic brain injury?

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#208

Post by etrautmann »

yk wrote: post #201
etrautmann wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The helmet is a light mass, which can move relative to the head, and experience drastically higher g-forces for very short times. Sampling an accelerometer at kHz rates as a helmet is vibrating (without translating all of the vibrational energy into the head), will measure larger peak G's than the head experiences. For this reason, when studying head impact for football players, they mount the accelerometers in the m…

Yes, but notice that the shock goes sled -> spine -> head -> helmet in sledding and other player -> helmet -> head in football. So, strapping an accelerometer onto the helmet looks quite a bit better for sledding. (And especially for a first measurement.)

Yep, except in the cases where the head hits the sled or ice, as mentioned in the article. I suspect these are responsible for large (and artifactual from the perspective of the brain) transient spikes in measured G-forces

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#209

Post by alex_duf »

gnramires wrote: post #19

This seems totally unacceptable. We should stop having this sport in the Olympics (implicitly supporting this madness) -- of course athletes are free to do as they chose, but we cannot encourage such pointless self-destruction and misery. An alternative to save the sport is completely redesign it to limit maximum accelerations. Usually injuries follow power laws so I doubt even that much reduction would be necessary…

_any_ sport at a high enough level will be bad for your body.

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#210

Post by HappyDreamer »

NoOneNew wrote: post #202
usgroup wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Olympics is just generally physically bad for the athletes. Runners, weightlifters, wrestlers, boxers, rowers, etc all these folks end up working so close o the edge of sustainable human tolerance and capacity that’s it’s unlikely they are not constantly going over it.

I find it extremely weird when people complain that athletes should stop their sport because "it's bad for them". So is office work. 8 hours of sitting, back pain and the repetitive stress on hands causing arthritis issues isn't that much better. I'd say it's just as physically bad for people, except office work is a life unfulfilled and boring. Office work isn't exactly something you can brag about. I'd rather have…

> [office chair back pain, finger injuries] isn't that much better

But this generally doesn't case suicide

And can be treated, by going to the gym. (I had back, knee, elbow pain myself, from office work — and the gym, made it disappear. In my particular case)

> bad knees

Agreed, I'd be ok with bad knees.

But when it's the brain, it's ... to some extent, the end.

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