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The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

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Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#101

Post by maeln »

bipson wrote: post #35
maeln wrote: post #16

It's honestly not a surprise. The European market favor smaller car way more than the American one. You just have to see the sheer number of 206, Twingo & Clio on the road. I still see some Tesla, but usually it is a status symbol, people who just want an electric car usually go for the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe.

That's one explanation that focuses on the differences between European an American markets. But also, the Zoe is is in the affordable range for people looking for an electric car in non-massively-subsidized markets (Norway, Denmark), while VWs and Teslas are rather in the luxury range. The amount of car (utility & status & luxury) I get for Tesla or VW money in e.g. Germany, makes most prospective customers buy eith…

Yes absolutely ! That is why I was also talking about the Tesla has a "status symbol" :) .

Tesla are doubly expensive also because they usually fall into the sports cars category and insurance will make you pay way more.

Also, you probably need a safe place to park it. It is not true everywhere but I know that where I live, there is places where it would get vandalized pretty quickly.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#102

Post by jacquesm »

Theodores wrote: post #90
mytailorisrich wrote: post #2

In the UK a Renault Zoe is about 30% cheaper than a Tesla Model 3 and is smaller and more urban. I.e. more in line with most cars you see everywhere in Europe. It is also possible to lease the battery instead of buying it along with the car, which seems to be a popular option (although it seems they've removed the option, apparently).

The UK also has London with the congestion charge. EVs are exempt from the £15 per day charge. That works out at a £3750 'saving' over 50 5-day weeks in a year. Combine that with the incentives to buy an electric car, finance schemes to spread payment and the benefits of EV (lower fuel price) and you wonder why more people in the suburbs are not buying EVs. Sure you see some but not that many. Money is not the proble…

You answered your own question:

> you wonder why more people in the suburbs are not buying EVs.

> Money is not the problem given how many expensive German cars are on the streets.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#103

Post by em500 »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #93
himinlomax wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's usually not so much the expense of the car as the cost of operating them. Consider how expensive it is to own a car in NYC, well it's the same in all European cities, even those of much smaller size.

NYC parking prices, California gas prices (and possibly California registration costs depending on country), European tax rates, and "safety" inspection programs (that mostly just increase the cost of operating old, cheap cars), combine to provide a hefty financial incentive for people in Western Europe to take the bus/train.

> California gas prices

Most European drivers would be thrilled with California gas prices: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/gas-prices/

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#104

Post by bryanlarsen »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #66
Krasnol wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there will be many who decided to buy a Zoe because a Tesla wasn't available. It's the price. I doubt there is much overlap with the ID3 too. The cheapest model will cost you two Zoes.

VW were originally saying the ID.3 was going to be priced similarly to a Golf diesel. I wonder what changed.

Did it change? That was for the base model which they won't be selling until next year, and including the German government incentive. https://insideevs.com/news/406682/vw-id3-cost-compared-with-...

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#105

Post by selectodude »

zaroth wrote: post #83
WhompingWindows wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's going to be a long while to hit +500km range for $20k. If we assume that Tesla's batteries are around $120/kWh currently (that's generous, I think it's 127), to get 500 km range with the Model 3 would take around 130 kWh (26 kWh/100 mi). That means that the battery alone is going to be $15,000+, which is 75% of your $20k figure. In my estimation, they'd need to reduce the battery cost down by around 2/3 to reach…

I think you mixed up km and miles. 310 miles needs about 75kWh or $120 * 75 = $9,000. If the car is smaller that number also goes down.

The car can't be too small though, Tesla's 85kwh pack weighs 1200 pounds. A third of the weight of the Model 3 is batteries alone.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#106

Post by pi-rat »

Plasmoid2000ad wrote: post #75
pi-rat wrote: post #12

Very interesting, the Zoe is all the way back on 7th place here in Norway (more than 50% of all new cars here are electric), I wonder why there's a big difference compared with "mainland Europe".. Of all time: Leaf, Golf, i3, model S, Soul, Model 3, Zoe.. In 2020: E-tron, Golf, Leaf, Kona, Model 3, Soul, Zoe. Could be because Zoe is a picky charger. It's made to AC charge on TN power nets, and Norway has quite a bit…

I wonder is it how the Zoe is viewed. In most of Europe, I think it's viewed as the only Electric car that's competitive on price against Internal Combusion cars. For a bit more, an eco conscious person can get city car with good range. In Norway, where as I understand all IC cars now are luxury cars due the taxation, the Zoe is just one of many EVs to choose from. If it was me, I'd choose a Kona or a e-Niro over a Z…

You could be right about that. Zoe is just one of many options. If you need the range you probably want a larger car as well (chargers are everywhere here, short range car for commutes isn’t a problem.) Most other long range cars also have heat pumps and battery heater/coolers.

I’ve the Kona EV myself actually, great car. And to illustrate the ICE/EV price difference here, top specced it was slightly cheaper than a base model ICE Golf.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#108

Post by cheerlessbog »

PeterisP wrote: post #97
cheerlessbog wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US most electric cars are charged on the driveway or in the garage. Most Europeans don't have these. I'm generalizing of course, but it's a significant difference. Most folks I know would have to run a cable across the sidewalk. Electric is only going to work if all the supermarkets and pubs etc etc have fast chargers. Or maybe they put them into lamp posts.

Running electricity cables to streetside parking spaces and parking lots near apartment buildings is now considered key infrastructure that the EU governments are rolling out. It's slow at the moment, but we'll get there.

The scale is daunting...running new cables for probably more than half the households in the EU. Comparable to the effort to get fiber to the home.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#109

Post by neutronicus »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #70
oblio wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whichever company is the first to make a family EV with a +500km range for less than $20k will sell tens of millions of cars.

In the US most electric cars are charged on the driveway or in the garage. Most Europeans don't have these. I'm generalizing of course, but it's a significant difference. Most folks I know would have to run a cable across the sidewalk. Electric is only going to work if all the supermarkets and pubs etc etc have fast chargers. Or maybe they put them into lamp posts.

Yeah my wife and I live in an apartment building in a mid-major city on the US east coast and we looked into a PHEV (wanted the tax credit), but it just wasn't workable. I looked for garages and lots with charging stations but couldn't find one.

In effect the tax credit seems like a subsidy for detached single family homes, since I really don't see how you can swing it any other way.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#110

Post by ulfw »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #13
mytailorisrich wrote: post #2

In the UK a Renault Zoe is about 30% cheaper than a Tesla Model 3 and is smaller and more urban. I.e. more in line with most cars you see everywhere in Europe. It is also possible to lease the battery instead of buying it along with the car, which seems to be a popular option (although it seems they've removed the option, apparently).

A Zoe is a nice city car that sells well but only as a second car. It does not compete with the Model 3 which does replace ICE vehicles as a main car. You simply wouldn't do a cross-country trip in a Zoe -- say, from Belgium to the French Riviera -- so most families would need another vehicle (ICE, PHEV or long-range & fast charging Tesla). They just don't share the same market. EV compete with ICEs alternative more…

How often do people do a cross continental trip of 1000km+? Like honestly.

Same argument I heard back in the day on why so many buy estates instead of hatchbacks “in case I move a cupboard”. Like how often does that happen in life?

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