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The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

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Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#51

Post by guerby »

brnt wrote: post #40
maeln wrote: post #16

It's honestly not a surprise. The European market favor smaller car way more than the American one. You just have to see the sheer number of 206, Twingo & Clio on the road. I still see some Tesla, but usually it is a status symbol, people who just want an electric car usually go for the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe.

This. Commute cars are Aygos and Ups, not two ton sedans. The (original) Tesla is one of the largest vehicles you'll see around here, only beaten by the hughest SUVs. And the commute market is where people buy electric, so that doesn't match at all. Anecdatally the only people I know with Teslas are rich enough they have it as one of their cars, as an extra to see what it is all about. Very few buy it instead of thei…

In the whole 2019 (with a crazy december) Tesla Model 3 was the first car by number of sale (electric or not)

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-...

1 Tesla Model 3 29,922

2 VW Polo 12,920

3 Ford Focus 10,478

4 VW Golf 9,263

Number 2 to 4 are small cars.

But Tesla sale number per country just mean Tesla decided to allocate more cars to a specific country, as long as it is production constrained not much information about customer preferences from sales numbers.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#52

Post by nickik »

Tesla will only really start competing in Europe once their factory is up and running. It messes with their financials to have lots of vehicles being transported. That should give them some high volume but the cars are still not perfect for the European market, but at least they should make a good margin.

It will probebly be 2 more years before they have a 'small' car for Europe and China in production. Only then they will really compete with the shorter range city cars.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#53

Post by pi-rat »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #14
TLightful wrote: post #4

Not surprised - the Zoe is just a nice little everyday car ... not trying to be too much, just get the basics right of what a nomal driver needs. I'm in the market for an EV next year and, if the competitors haven't stepped up their game, I'll get one. No way will I buy a Tesla. Extremely bored of their brand and their online cult - very excited for alternatives. You can take your 0-60 and ... :)

Would the Zoe be your only car? Do you plan to do cross-country trips? If not, what would you consider other than a Tesla for long range trips (ignoring branding/marketing for a second)?

Either go for a fast charging car, fastest Tesla moves 1000 km in 10h (incl charging), newest E-tron manages the same in 10h20m (Teslabjørn’s tests).

Or go for something super efficient, like the Kias (Kona/Ioniq). Kona does 560 km on a single charge (64 kWh) in real life tests here in Norway.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#54

Post by rsynnott »

pi-rat wrote: post #12

Very interesting, the Zoe is all the way back on 7th place here in Norway (more than 50% of all new cars here are electric), I wonder why there's a big difference compared with "mainland Europe".. Of all time: Leaf, Golf, i3, model S, Soul, Model 3, Zoe.. In 2020: E-tron, Golf, Leaf, Kona, Model 3, Soul, Zoe. Could be because Zoe is a picky charger. It's made to AC charge on TN power nets, and Norway has quite a bit…

Might be market dynamics; are Norwegians more status-conscious than the average European? The e-tron in the lead there would definitely indicate something along those lines.

Or possibly available credit and willing to use said credit. The UK is a bit of an outlier in terms of car spending when you look at its average wages, but the massive popularity of PCP loans probably explains that.

Norwegians are also higher income than the average European, of course, but that probably doesn't explain all of it.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#55

Post by cerberusss »

TLightful wrote: post #50
cerberusss wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've driven the Zoe on a daily commute that's 160 km (100 mi). It's a fantastic car. I've also driven it from The Netherlands to France, 1000 km (621 mi). Then you get into a problem that the charging time from 10-80% takes a full hour, and it's necessary about 5 times for that distance. I personally still thought it was a fun trip.

That long trip is actually not bad at all ... I mean, one hour 10-80% is totally fine for me. Grab a meal, freshen up. All good. Good to hear.

That's with the 40 kWh version. I believe the 50 kWh version has the same charge curve, but obviously gets you farther.

You can get much faster there if you charge more often and stop around 60-70%. On long trips, I take a lot of margin, which isn't necessary if you drive to somewhere you know really well (say, a second home) and which has plenty of chargers.

I have to admit, I'm a bit in love with this car. So I'm perhaps overly positive.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#56

Post by rsynnott »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #13
mytailorisrich wrote: post #2

In the UK a Renault Zoe is about 30% cheaper than a Tesla Model 3 and is smaller and more urban. I.e. more in line with most cars you see everywhere in Europe. It is also possible to lease the battery instead of buying it along with the car, which seems to be a popular option (although it seems they've removed the option, apparently).

A Zoe is a nice city car that sells well but only as a second car. It does not compete with the Model 3 which does replace ICE vehicles as a main car. You simply wouldn't do a cross-country trip in a Zoe -- say, from Belgium to the French Riviera -- so most families would need another vehicle (ICE, PHEV or long-range & fast charging Tesla). They just don't share the same market. EV compete with ICEs alternative more…

> You simply wouldn't do a cross-country trip in a Zoe -- say, from Belgium to the French Riviera

What percentage of people actually do that at all regularly? I would have thought a lot of people would fly or take the train for that.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#57

Post by mytailorisrich »

xiphias2 wrote: post #45

Model 3 is great in the US, but here people prefer BMWs because of more service locations and much better service (we can get new parts easily from Germany, don’t need to wait for parts from the U.S.), and pay extra costs from importing from outside E.U. The Berlin factory will help with all of these problems.

From what I hear, for the same price range BMWs, Mercedes, etc. are also much better quality than Teslas.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#58

Post by mytailorisrich »

rsynnott wrote: post #56
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Zoe is a nice city car that sells well but only as a second car. It does not compete with the Model 3 which does replace ICE vehicles as a main car. You simply wouldn't do a cross-country trip in a Zoe -- say, from Belgium to the French Riviera -- so most families would need another vehicle (ICE, PHEV or long-range & fast charging Tesla). They just don't share the same market. EV compete with ICEs alternative more…

> You simply wouldn't do a cross-country trip in a Zoe -- say, from Belgium to the French Riviera What percentage of people actually do that at all regularly? I would have thought a lot of people would fly or take the train for that.

From what we see on European roads it's quite common for people in Belgium and the Netherlands to drive to Southern Europe for the summer holidays.

Usually these are big wagon cars, though because they need to fit the family and luggage in there. So I think that people will stick to ICE until there are family-sized EV with the range and the price range. Teslas are not really an option at the moment, IMO.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#59

Post by codeulike »

makapuf wrote: post #48
codeulike wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nissan have been too slow to get the Leaf to 200+ mile range. They've done it, after talking about it for years, but its expensive.

Renault and Nissan are part of the same group. Pretty sure they share parts.

But still.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#60

Post by buran77 »

bipson wrote: post #39
Reason077 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Purchasing power parity” doesn’t apply equally across all products. An equivalent salary in Denmark or Sweden will buy you more groceries than in Norway, but in Norway it will buy you a nicer electric car!

That's the point. Taking what you earn a and live with in Norway, and comparing it with other countries, due to massive subsidies (luxury-tax excemptions that usually apply to cars), a Tesla is an affordable option for an Norwegian looking for a nice car, while this is simply not the case for most other European countries. The same applies to Denmark and Netherlands to some degree, btw. They just have other subsidizi…

> a Tesla is an affordable option for an Norwegian looking for a nice car

Not only that but between the EV incentives and ICE disincentives, a Tesla won't be just affordable, it might end up costing just as much as a lower-end ICE car. The value proposition of the 2 options is reversed so one extracts more value by going the EV route. This has historically been called as "tax benefits for the rich" presumably because most EVs were still out of reach for much of the population. This should equalize now as more cars like Zoe come onto the market, assuming the incentives are there to stay.

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