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Sledding athletes are taking their lives

nytimes.com

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Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#61

Post by lmm »

qserasera wrote: post #54
Swizec wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So funny thing about unacceptable and lateral g-force — this is a big part of why F1 cars aren’t V10 engines anymore. They were getting too fast and the decision was between g-suits and slower cars. FIA chose slower cars (also more fuel efficient, yay). Now it’s a few years later and cars have again advanced to the point that drivers pull more than 5 lateral G in some corners. It’s kinda bonkers. I wonder if somethin…

I was told that engines were more stable in multiples of 6's from some weird physics going on in the engine. I guess that guy could have been completely full of shit.

That guy was right that there are 6-cylinder configurations with perfect mechanical balance (and not for other cylinder numbers), but the V6 isn't one of them so that's not the reason here.

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#62

Post by mam2 »

etrautmann wrote: post #41
nimih wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? To me (a layperson in the physics of helmets and brains), they would seem to be quite directly related, especially when the cause of the gees is not related to an impact.

The helmet is a light mass, which can move relative to the head, and experience drastically higher g-forces for very short times. Sampling an accelerometer at kHz rates as a helmet is vibrating (without translating all of the vibrational energy into the head), will measure larger peak G's than the head experiences. For this reason, when studying head impact for football players, they mount the accelerometers in the m…

That sounds like r/imsosmart ... a simple low pass filter would be sufficient to negate the effects you talk about

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#63

Post by Godel_unicode »

gnramires wrote: post #19

This seems totally unacceptable. We should stop having this sport in the Olympics (implicitly supporting this madness) -- of course athletes are free to do as they chose, but we cannot encourage such pointless self-destruction and misery. An alternative to save the sport is completely redesign it to limit maximum accelerations. Usually injuries follow power laws so I doubt even that much reduction would be necessary…

> Usually injuries follow power laws

That's a pretty outstanding claim, do you have any evidence for this?

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#64

Post by Godel_unicode »

manojlds wrote: post #51
Swizec wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So funny thing about unacceptable and lateral g-force — this is a big part of why F1 cars aren’t V10 engines anymore. They were getting too fast and the decision was between g-suits and slower cars. FIA chose slower cars (also more fuel efficient, yay). Now it’s a few years later and cars have again advanced to the point that drivers pull more than 5 lateral G in some corners. It’s kinda bonkers. I wonder if somethin…

Do you have a source on the reason for moving away from V10s being about safety of drivers. It was, I thought, about cost reduction and image (move towards less gas guzzling monsters and then hybrid that we have today)

https://web.archive.org/web/20070428004836/http://www.formul...

"For 2006, engines are reduced in size from the previous 3-litre V10s to 2.4-litre V8s. The aim is to reduce costs and improve safety."

You can also tell that it's mostly about performance, given all the other design restrictions (no variable valve timing, no intercoolers, just one spark plug, etc ).

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#65

Post by btilly »

gnramires wrote: post #19

This seems totally unacceptable. We should stop having this sport in the Olympics (implicitly supporting this madness) -- of course athletes are free to do as they chose, but we cannot encourage such pointless self-destruction and misery. An alternative to save the sport is completely redesign it to limit maximum accelerations. Usually injuries follow power laws so I doubt even that much reduction would be necessary…

It would not be the first Olympic sport redesigned for safety concerns.

The first one that I am aware of is Javelin. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javelin_throw#Javelin_redesign... for more.

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#66

Post by noisy_boy »

I think the more these things are talked about the better. The research may not be definitive but people should be more aware of the high-g's, impact of brain injuries on their lives based on the experience shared by top-athletes, cases of suicides etc. It may be an individual's personal decision if they want to get involved in this sport but at least they will be relatively more aware of the potential risks with what they are getting into.

Also, in this day and age of metrics-madness, it is incredible that important measurements such as g-forces (even if just on the helmet) are not routinely recorded and/or shared as part of scores/stats.

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#67

Post by ehnto »

mam2 wrote: post #62
etrautmann wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The helmet is a light mass, which can move relative to the head, and experience drastically higher g-forces for very short times. Sampling an accelerometer at kHz rates as a helmet is vibrating (without translating all of the vibrational energy into the head), will measure larger peak G's than the head experiences. For this reason, when studying head impact for football players, they mount the accelerometers in the m…

That sounds like r/imsosmart ... a simple low pass filter would be sufficient to negate the effects you talk about

Have you used a helmet before? They don't track the heads movement very well. It's not that they lag behind or anything, they just move in completely different directions willy nilly. Even tight ones will have much sharper acceleration changes as they bounce around.

I regularly wear a full face helmet with tight fitment and straps and it is moving way more than my head is.

Is that notsosmart enough?

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#68

Post by aebtebeten »

The Cresta Run has had to find its own underwriter because many refuse to cover sledding. I can't find it now, but at one point I was looking for "extreme sports" cover, and was surprised to see that even in that space, the Cresta was listed as an exception to coverage.

https://www.cresta-run.com/ride-the-cresta/insurance/

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#69

Post by modernerd »

elliottkember wrote: post #24
Swizec wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t the fact that your skull decelerates slower against an airbag than against a steering wheel mean that your brain hits your skull with less force?

Yes, that's what it does. It's not zero, but it's definitely less. But you probably only hit an airbag a couple of times max over the course of your lifetime, whereas on the field you'll hit your head the whole game. And I don't know how you could put an airbag in a helmet, there's not enough space to slow your impact

> I don't know how you could put an airbag in a helmet

I own a Hövding, and they're supposedly six-to-eight times better than a traditional cycle helmet (particularly for neck stability):

https://hovding.com/our-vision/

https://news.stanford.edu/2016/10/03/stanford-researchers-sh...

Improvements to traditional helmets can definitely be made, although I'm not sure how practical an airbag helmet is for tobogganing, where it must also resist extended friction and multiple repeat impacts.

Re: Sledding athletes are taking their lives

#70

Post by mam2 »

ehnto wrote: post #67
mam2 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like r/imsosmart ... a simple low pass filter would be sufficient to negate the effects you talk about

Have you used a helmet before? They don't track the heads movement very well. It's not that they lag behind or anything, they just move in completely different directions willy nilly. Even tight ones will have much sharper acceleration changes as they bounce around. I regularly wear a full face helmet with tight fitment and straps and it is moving way more than my head is. Is that notsosmart enough?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter
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