Montreal is taxing churches (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#261

Post by skinnymuch » Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 12:52 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #214

dingoegret wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's evident by your opening that you have a bone to pick with religion, so I'll keep this short. 3D printing masks for an emergency and other one offs don't come close to the amount of non stop, year long, permanent activity in charity and community of churches and mosques.

> 3D printing masks for an emergency and other one offs don't come close to the amount of non stop, year long, permanent activity in charity and community of churches and mosques. The problem is that in the U.S., the state has given up on helping the poor, especially when compared to EU countries, and it is then up to private institutions to fill in some semblance of what should have already been there as nonnegotiab…

Yes, some of the stuff you said churches do that is a failure of the state has been called perseverance porn. Feel-good stories of people coming together to help pay for an out of control ambulance ride and so on.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#262

Post by paulryanrogers » Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 12:52 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #98

Galaxeblaffer wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you could earmark the collected taxes for creating secular alternatives? Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich people for charity.

> Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich people for charity. Being handed everything by a welfare state is de facto charity for the recipient. The biggest difference is that charity is morally superior because it's voluntary. Besides, the US has a very large welfare state. I get a big kick out of people pretending the US doesn't have an epic scale, highly dysfunctional, poorly o…

How many trillions are churches spending, in dollars and hours, to provide basic services? And that with a dose of magical thinking, confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, and appeals to authority.

IME even the most progressive churches can do a lot of 'soft' damage to already hurting people. Secular services certainly have their own faults, but at least they don't have so many invisible strings attached.

Please also keep in mind that secular services compete for resources and mindshare against religious institutions. It becomes a self reinforcing argument on the right that we need to keep the latter because the former is so bad.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#263

Post by throwaway894345 » Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 12:53 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #223

barry-cotter wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a perfect way for the state to exercise control over religious organizations! You’d quickly end up with every such state sponsored “church” as disruptive to state interests as the Church of England, the Lutheran State Churches of Scandinavia or the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association.

China aside given that it's an authoritarian state I much prefer the control the state has over the church here in Germany, because it eliminates virtually all religious sectarianism and has led to the church having adopted teaching and a curriculum that is largely in line with the basic constitutional law and secular values rather than existing outside of it. Same in the UK or Scandinavia. One of the reasons Islamic…

> China aside given that it's an authoritarian state I much prefer the control the state has over the church here in Germany, because it eliminates virtually all religious sectarianism and has led to the church having adopted teaching and a curriculum that is largely in line with the basic constitutional law and secular values rather than existing outside of it.

The picture you paint of government control over religion sounds very authoritarian to me. As far as “parallel societies are bad”, what happened to “diversity is our strength”?

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#264

Post by dmitriid » Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 1:01 PM UTC

readarticle wrote: post #249

dmitriid wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans secularism >> European “secularism”. You conveniently forget that the church has no qualms about controlling the state in the US

Which church?

Mostly Southern Baptists and Evangelicals.

Have you been blind to politics in the past few years? From forcing intelligent design into schools to full assault against planned parenthood etc.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#265

Post by Barrin92 » Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #263

Barrin92 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China aside given that it's an authoritarian state I much prefer the control the state has over the church here in Germany, because it eliminates virtually all religious sectarianism and has led to the church having adopted teaching and a curriculum that is largely in line with the basic constitutional law and secular values rather than existing outside of it. Same in the UK or Scandinavia. One of the reasons Islamic…

> China aside given that it's an authoritarian state I much prefer the control the state has over the church here in Germany, because it eliminates virtually all religious sectarianism and has led to the church having adopted teaching and a curriculum that is largely in line with the basic constitutional law and secular values rather than existing outside of it. The picture you paint of government control over religi…

Diversity is a good thing, that's not changed. But diversity doesn't mean 'anything goes'. There's boundaries in a civil society for a reason.

Religious practice is fine but withholding a secular education from children or ditching modern medicine, or attacking the rights of women or exercising corporal punishment isn't.

I don't see how having the ability to put a stop to it is authoritarian, at least not any more than religious extremism itself is. The alternative to government exercising control over religion is having religion exercise control over government. The problem doesn't go away.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#266

Post by throwaway894345 » Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 1:05 PM UTC

dungdongdang wrote: post #185

onetimemanytime wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Don't you only tax profits? If a church isn't making any, then there'd be nothing to tax? Land and buildings for one could be taxed. Churches bought or were given land ages ago, before there was a Manhattan or Boston, as we today know it. Go ahead and pay property tax on land worth $250 Million when you barely make income to keep the lights on.

then they need to close down and move. if i buy a house for 20k and when I retire the property values are sky-high and the property taxes, which pay for things like roads and schools are too much for me to afford, i have to move. the people giving money to churches to attend that church, should pick up the cost of going to that church. which includes property taxes. if they are not willing to pay for that, it's their…

> the people giving money to churches to attend that church, should pick up the cost of going to that church. which includes property taxes. if they are not willing to pay for that, it's their problem. excusing churches from these taxes puts the burden for the church not on its members, but on everyone.

Your whole premise here is that property taxes should be considered part of the cost of attending church (your first and second sentences from the quoted section above), but that’s exactly what is up for debate. You need to support that premise if you want to say something more persuasive than “I think churches should pay taxes because I think churches should pay taxes”.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#267

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 1:06 PM UTC

james412 wrote: post #251

jacquesm wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll just leave this here as one sample of many: https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/1/1366/0/uploads/posts... Let's just say that not every church is the same as your Methodist church.

What are we supposed to be looking at here?

Russian Orthodox priests in Romania and Bulgaria are absolutely terrible. They prey on a gullible and very poor population while living in opulence and flaunting their wealth. In Bucharest, Romania, they are currently building a church to the tune of 100 million euros.

https://balkaninsight.com/2018/11/23/heavy-price-tag-oversha...

70% or more of that came from public funding, essentially tax payer money rerouted to build this monstrosity, something the country really can not afford.

And all of that for a pissing match about who has the tallest church.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#268

Post by paulryanrogers » Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 1:08 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #212

threatofrain wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem I see is that church is also leading the cause to marginalize gay people from society by force of government. There's a reason why during the Bush presidential candidacy a big news item was the push for a Constitutional amendment to exclude gay marriage. The Mormon church spent a great amount of money advertising in California with regards to how dangerous gay people are to kids. People talk about "intole…

> church is also leading the cause to marginalize gay people This might be the case of some church organizations (specifically those that make it a point to be politically active), but claiming that all churches do this, or even a majority of them, is just not accurate - guilt by association. I grew up in Catholic schools, and almost every priest that taught us was incredibly kind and open to gays. These priests are…

Yet their foundational texts at minimum call homosexuality unclean. Then the are the laws prescribing murder for homosexuals. This is just one problematic topic among many.

Church culture evolves but not always in the progressive direction. Propping up these ancient institutions just because they are old--and sometimes do good--comes at a high cost to marginalized groups.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#269

Post by barry-cotter » Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 1:13 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #223

barry-cotter wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a perfect way for the state to exercise control over religious organizations! You’d quickly end up with every such state sponsored “church” as disruptive to state interests as the Church of England, the Lutheran State Churches of Scandinavia or the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association.

China aside given that it's an authoritarian state I much prefer the control the state has over the church here in Germany, because it eliminates virtually all religious sectarianism and has led to the church having adopted teaching and a curriculum that is largely in line with the basic constitutional law and secular values rather than existing outside of it. Same in the UK or Scandinavia. One of the reasons Islamic…

I could not have hoped for a more perfect illustration of my point. We are in perfect agreement on the outcomes, we just disagree on whether the state being in charge of determining public morality is good or not. You, a product of a state indoctrination system, agree with its values. The same thing happens in other countries where the state has different values.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#270

Post by throwaway894345 » Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 1:18 PM UTC

enaaem wrote: post #113

Galaxeblaffer wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you could earmark the collected taxes for creating secular alternatives? Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich people for charity.

Churches provide much more than just money. Solace, peace, love, community etc... I'd say this is more important than money. I used to be a Christian. There are a lot of bad sides of Christianity and that is why I left. But it does help many people and after studying Buddhism I understand how the right approach to Christianity can bring a lot of peace to believers: Unconditional love. Many people grew up made to feel…

Not only that, but the idea that we should have some sense of mercy, grace, forgiveness, etc that even permeates secular society. It’s an important value, and we’re seeing it break down as mobs of allegedly grown adults harass strangers for decades-old off-color remarks made as children, or for remarks made by family or acquaintances, or etc. I think Hitchens said that he didn’t like Christianity, but it may have been a bulwark against worse things. I think he was speaking about extreme Islam, but I think there are other pseudo-religious toxic philosophies (and thus toxic behaviors) that Christian ethics defend against as well.