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Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

montreal.ctvnews.ca

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Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#241

Post by vowelless »

Barrin92 wrote: post #223
barry-cotter wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a perfect way for the state to exercise control over religious organizations! You’d quickly end up with every such state sponsored “church” as disruptive to state interests as the Church of England, the Lutheran State Churches of Scandinavia or the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association.

China aside given that it's an authoritarian state I much prefer the control the state has over the church here in Germany, because it eliminates virtually all religious sectarianism and has led to the church having adopted teaching and a curriculum that is largely in line with the basic constitutional law and secular values rather than existing outside of it. Same in the UK or Scandinavia. One of the reasons Islamic…

The First Amendment strongly prevents something like this in the US. There is no way the state can control a religious organization here and that’s a good thing. Americans secularism >> European “secularism”.

Islamic extremism in your country is not due to lack of state control of their mosques. It’s how you have treated generations of Islamic immigrants (Turks on work visas, no citizenships, open borders with lots of “refugees”, etc). Of course they will make parallel societies. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#242

Post by majkinetor »

ranman wrote: post #97

Everyone commenting about how great churches are? You’re absolutely delusional. The gross majority of these organizations are bigoted and racist. I grew up in the southern United States and experienced all manner of churches. I don’t care how great your church is. Give me 20 minutes with your congregation and I’ll find the racists and bigots. These assholes promote terrible mental and physical health. They don’t beli…

Amen to that! :

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#245

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

ggggtez wrote: post #38
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #4

Churches get a bad rap these days, for many reasons. I want to take a minute to defend them. Right away, I want to say that I am not defending religion-driven bigotry, nor megachurches, nor abuse. I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. churches are still where communities meet, where people connect with the spiritual world, and also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity. They…

> where people connect with the spiritual world In the USA, this is quickly becoming an obsolete understanding of religion. Regular church attendance is down from 70% to just over 50% in the last 20 years, according to Gallup. People are leaving the churches. The real question is what will replace them. If people need community, build community centers. There are other solutions that do not rely on continuing to prov…

Well, then just leave them untaxed, and let "the problem" take care of itself. My parents go to a typical (The problem is that the only way to keep the lights on in these churches is to appeal to people in their 60's and 70's, but programs geared for that age bracket will turn away people in their 20's and 30's, and deprive the church of new people, new perspective, and new funding. These kinds of churches are slowly starving to death, victims of simple attrition.)

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#246

Post by dmitriid »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #189
dmitriid wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has survived millennia. By "millennia" you mean "at most 300 years, maybe"?

Here in USA. Oldest churches are from the 4th century elsewhere. For the record: I don't think that priests should be able to buy $50M jets or keep 40% of total land of x country tax free, but they should not be forced to sell buildings because property tax is too high.

Yes. My comment was about "here in the USA" because the grandparent comment talked about churches existing "before Boston".

Churches are routinely handed over to the state or to commercial entities in order to preserve them because church membership is in rapid decline and its very expensive to take care of the church building especially if it has "survived millennia".

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#247

Post by nulbyte »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #149
hrktb wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A solution to this is to give back the land to the local city and have it handled as cultural heritage, with an authorization to practice religious activities at specific times, but it’s governed by local administration overall. That’s how some cathedrals are managed in europe for instance.

Cool, and all the people have to do this with any property held corporately? Or only groups of people who identify as Christians? The upkeep of a Cathedral is hella expensive, St.Paul's in London claims its building's upkeep cost is > £5.2M ('more than £10 per minute'). A building ownership tax seems sensible, but I'd be amazed if any Capitalist government considered it.

> A building ownership tax seems sensible, but I'd be amazed if any Capitalist government considered it.

I'm not sure I understand your meaning. Are you referring to something different from property tax?

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#248

Post by dmitriid »

vowelless wrote: post #241
Barrin92 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China aside given that it's an authoritarian state I much prefer the control the state has over the church here in Germany, because it eliminates virtually all religious sectarianism and has led to the church having adopted teaching and a curriculum that is largely in line with the basic constitutional law and secular values rather than existing outside of it. Same in the UK or Scandinavia. One of the reasons Islamic…

The First Amendment strongly prevents something like this in the US. There is no way the state can control a religious organization here and that’s a good thing. Americans secularism >> European “secularism”. Islamic extremism in your country is not due to lack of state control of their mosques. It’s how you have treated generations of Islamic immigrants (Turks on work visas, no citizenships, open borders with lots o…

> Americans secularism >> European “secularism”.

You conveniently forget that the church has no qualms about controlling the state in the US

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#249

Post by readarticle »

dmitriid wrote: post #248
vowelless wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The First Amendment strongly prevents something like this in the US. There is no way the state can control a religious organization here and that’s a good thing. Americans secularism >> European “secularism”. Islamic extremism in your country is not due to lack of state control of their mosques. It’s how you have treated generations of Islamic immigrants (Turks on work visas, no citizenships, open borders with lots o…

> Americans secularism >> European “secularism”. You conveniently forget that the church has no qualms about controlling the state in the US

Which church?

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#250

Post by justinclift »

dingoegret wrote: post #181
AsyncAwait wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> U.S. churches are still where communities meet So is conference halls. So is Zoom for that matter. Churches are also places where parents force their children to go against their wishes, where creepy priests make unwanted advances etc. > also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity Any kind? Really? What about NGOs? Volunteering nurses? FLOSS communities? People 3D printing masks…

It's evident by your opening that you have a bone to pick with religion, so I'll keep this short. 3D printing masks for an emergency and other one offs don't come close to the amount of non stop, year long, permanent activity in charity and community of churches and mosques.

> non stop, year long, permanent activity in charity

Just to point out, being an active developer/maintainer/etc of widely used FLOSS programs often seems to involve that. ;)

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