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Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

montreal.ctvnews.ca

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Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#211

Post by wolfhumble »

rational_indian wrote: post #188
enaaem wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Churches provide much more than just money. Solace, peace, love, community etc... I'd say this is more important than money. I used to be a Christian. There are a lot of bad sides of Christianity and that is why I left. But it does help many people and after studying Buddhism I understand how the right approach to Christianity can bring a lot of peace to believers: Unconditional love. Many people grew up made to feel…

I feel these things should exist without God. That is, they can be helpful to non-believers too. But I am having a hard time creating secular versions of these. I think the root of the problem lies in the fact that God here is an abstract entity with whom the believer communicates but no such abstract entity exists for non-believers (duh!). May be some form of general artificial intelligence can fulfil this role in t…

The purpose of being a Christian is to love God and to love your neighbour as yourself. In if you wonder how far the love of your neighbour stretches, the goalpost has ben set at the very end: Love your enemies.[See: Mark 12:30-31 and Matthew 5:44] And this follows and is natural because God is LOVE [1 John 4:7-21].

I have a hard time believing AI will fulfil this role. For would it be optimized for gains here and now, or actions of sacrifice now that will be payed back fully in an everlasting life and that is built on faith? :-)

And I must admit that love is hard and I mess up a lot! But i try to do the same as is written here:

"Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus."[Philippians 3.13-14]

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#212

Post by koheripbal »

threatofrain wrote: post #95
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #4

Churches get a bad rap these days, for many reasons. I want to take a minute to defend them. Right away, I want to say that I am not defending religion-driven bigotry, nor megachurches, nor abuse. I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. churches are still where communities meet, where people connect with the spiritual world, and also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity. They…

One problem I see is that church is also leading the cause to marginalize gay people from society by force of government. There's a reason why during the Bush presidential candidacy a big news item was the push for a Constitutional amendment to exclude gay marriage. The Mormon church spent a great amount of money advertising in California with regards to how dangerous gay people are to kids. People talk about "intole…

> church is also leading the cause to marginalize gay people

This might be the case of some church organizations (specifically those that make it a point to be politically active), but claiming that all churches do this, or even a majority of them, is just not accurate - guilt by association.

I grew up in Catholic schools, and almost every priest that taught us was incredibly kind and open to gays.

These priests are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#213

Post by koheripbal »

neya wrote: post #94

Churches are one of the biggest business entities in any part of the world. Most churches are structured like a proper business entity (Eg. they have equivalent of directors, CEOs and managers) and have revenue targets and KPIs set. Most churches are also located in some of the prime real estate of top tier cities and I always wondered how they were able to afford paying $1500+/Sq.M in a prime, central area. About th…

> I know for a fact the charity work the churches do cost less than 10% of the income they make

If you really know this for a FACT, then I'm sure you can share your source for this information.

Churches are currently treated almost exactly like any other non-profit by the IRS. Taxing them specifically, but NOT other non-profits means we would be specifically discriminating against a religious organization.

...and religious persecution is a new level of left-wing intolerance that I, sadly, would not be surprised to see.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#214

Post by AsyncAwait »

dingoegret wrote: post #181
AsyncAwait wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> U.S. churches are still where communities meet So is conference halls. So is Zoom for that matter. Churches are also places where parents force their children to go against their wishes, where creepy priests make unwanted advances etc. > also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity Any kind? Really? What about NGOs? Volunteering nurses? FLOSS communities? People 3D printing masks…

It's evident by your opening that you have a bone to pick with religion, so I'll keep this short. 3D printing masks for an emergency and other one offs don't come close to the amount of non stop, year long, permanent activity in charity and community of churches and mosques.

> 3D printing masks for an emergency and other one offs don't come close to the amount of non stop, year long, permanent activity in charity and community of churches and mosques.

The problem is that in the U.S., the state has given up on helping the poor, especially when compared to EU countries, and it is then up to private institutions to fill in some semblance of what should have already been there as nonnegotiable basis of a developed society.

I am not from the U.S., (but with a lot of fiends from there), and I can tell you that a lot of what churches do in the U.S. is so basic that it should not be their role to provide. It is often used as a metric of "success" for churches and private charity in general, but in reality all it shows is a failure of the wider society where things like medicare for all are still not a thing, even during a pandemic.

When there's a possibility of thousands of dollars that need to be paid for an ambulance ride, that is a systemic failure of the system no church can fix.

I am not religious myself, but I want to make it clear that I am not arguing churches do no good. They absolutely do. I just feel that the awful shit they do is often overlooked as soon as something positive can be said about them.

There are multiple sides to every story, even characters you wouldn't think much about based on the overall picture did good, (one particularly repulsive character of history did a lot for animal rights for example).

I also feel like other forms of charity are often diminished in their impact because they're less visible than church charity.

Let's take FLOSS for example; I come from a relatively poor upbringing, without access to good education or the internet for the longest time. I have cerebral palsy and that means any kind of physical work is pretty much a no go for me. What I did have was a couple of friends who gave me Mandrake Linux on 3 CDs back in the day with GCC preinstalled and a book on C.

Now I am able to support myself as a programmer and donate to FLOSS on a regular basis. Because FLOSS gave me hope, I also found the motivation to exercise really hard and to preserve some amount of mobility for myself, even into adulthood.

Without it, I'd most likely end up dependent on people I wanted nothing to do with and without any kind of dignity, demotivated and miserable. I cannot overstate the impact the free software community has on me and I feel like it did more for me than any church ever could.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#215

Post by notsureaboutpg »

ggggtez wrote: post #115
dropit_sphere wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> obsolete >just over 50% k (I feel like the glib single-character response stands on its own, but more verbosely: yeah, the trend isn't good, but a) there's no reason to assume it's linear, "fair-weather believers" is a thing, and b) I'm not a TIOBE follower, but let's say java use was 70% 20 years ago, and down to just over 50% today. Is "obsolete" the word you'd use?)

> this is quickly becoming an obsolete understanding of religion Yes, I stand by my words. If you read them again, you'll see you are arguing with something I didn't say. If 29% of religious people have left the church (50/70=71% still attend church)... then that is a major shift. It would be foolish to continue with previous assumptions about the role of churches going forward without taking into account how religio…

Just wanted to point out this might not be true of other religions in the US. Yes they make up a smaller number, but I know for a fact that Muslims are religiously more participatory than they were 20 years ago in America. It could be sheer rising numbers, but I and many of my peers have also become more involved in our religious centers than we used to be.

So what if, in order to accommodate the changing role of the church in America, you prevent the other minority religions and minority communities from ever having their centers grow in the same way churches were able to?

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#216

Post by notsureaboutpg »

threatofrain wrote: post #95
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #4

Churches get a bad rap these days, for many reasons. I want to take a minute to defend them. Right away, I want to say that I am not defending religion-driven bigotry, nor megachurches, nor abuse. I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. churches are still where communities meet, where people connect with the spiritual world, and also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity. They…

One problem I see is that church is also leading the cause to marginalize gay people from society by force of government. There's a reason why during the Bush presidential candidacy a big news item was the push for a Constitutional amendment to exclude gay marriage. The Mormon church spent a great amount of money advertising in California with regards to how dangerous gay people are to kids. People talk about "intole…

But this is not a valid argument for removing their tax exempt status since their tax exempt status is not based on agreeing or aligning with the government's views on homosexuality.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#217

Post by ykevinator »

But god is not real and belief in god is anti science. It is sad when smart people choose comfort over logic. I am not anti church or anti religion, I am anti logic. The world is trending in the right direction and eventually issues like this article will be gone, but in the mean time, compassionate people should find a better way to serve the less fortunate and their communities than in houses of worship dedicated to a bronze age religion. God is not real.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#218

Post by ykevinator »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #189
dmitriid wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has survived millennia. By "millennia" you mean "at most 300 years, maybe"?

Here in USA. Oldest churches are from the 4th century elsewhere. For the record: I don't think that priests should be able to buy $50M jets or keep 40% of total land of x country tax free, but they should not be forced to sell buildings because property tax is too high.

Why? Taxes may be too high, but why do they deserve an exemption? We all gotta pay for the snow plow.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#219

Post by chunkyslink »

barry-cotter wrote: post #177
Galaxeblaffer wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you could earmark the collected taxes for creating secular alternatives? Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich people for charity.

You can’t create secular alternatives to religious organizations, it’s like creating an alternative to a bar with no alcohol. You get something vastly more different than that would suggest. Churches and other religious organizations are based on a belief in something higher or transcendent that is lacking in secular organizations. All attempts to provide them have been miserable failures. Sunday Assembly was the las…

> it’s like creating an alternative to a bar with no alcohol

In many muslim countries in the world there are plenty of places like this because alcohol just isn't a thing.

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