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Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

montreal.ctvnews.ca

81–90 of 335 posts

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#81
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article makes clear that churches in Montreal are still getting their tax exemption if they stick to purely religious activities (prayer, worship, etc). They are only being taxed when they use their property for not explicitly religious activities like charitable uses, community groups, etc. Do those people applauding this really want to applaud a policy that gives tax exemptions to specifically religious activit…

Opinions on the cheering side are likely diverse; but a good argument for it is wanting a consistent tax code where people are treated consistently without reference to what they are thinking. I am not at all sympathetic to the idea that we allow good works to go tax-free only when religious people do them. That isn't fair. No exemptions for churches is fair, although they should have gotten more notice if this artic…

Well, I know that here in Australia we mostly have what you want – there are few special tax exemptions for religious groups. Most of the religious exemptions from taxation in Australia are simply applications of the general tax exemptions for charities and non-profits, combined with the fact that religions are legally categorised as both.

The main specific exemption I know of relates to fringe-benefits tax (FBT). Not all charities and non-profits get FBT exemptions or concessions, only some. Religious institutions fall into one of those categories that do get FBT relief, but so do other non-profits like hospitals, aged care facilities, health-related charities, charities targeting poverty/homelessness/etc. But a charity which promotes the advancement of arts and culture, for example, would not get any FBT relief, although it would be eligible for other tax exemptions due to charities and non-profits.

Also, there is at least one area in Australian tax law where religious groups are disadvantaged: deductible gift recipient (DGR) status. Donations to religious groups are not tax-deductible when used to fund their core religious functions, only when used to fund their programs to help the poor, etc. By contrast, there are various other categories of charities and non-profits for which all donations are deductible (e.g. Scouts; Girl Guides; public libraries, museums and art galleries; some environmental groups; etc).

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#82

Churches get a bad rap these days, for many reasons. I want to take a minute to defend them. Right away, I want to say that I am not defending religion-driven bigotry, nor megachurches, nor abuse. I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. churches are still where communities meet, where people connect with the spiritual world, and also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity. They…

When it comes to religion, America is the (massive) exception.

My local church, that drives 10,000s of nearby resident crazy by ringing it's bells, had 3 people attending last time I stuck my head in.

3.

People only use it for weddings, christenings and Christmas.

They're not been a part of the community for decades.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#83
post #38

Churches get a bad rap these days, for many reasons. I want to take a minute to defend them. Right away, I want to say that I am not defending religion-driven bigotry, nor megachurches, nor abuse. I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. churches are still where communities meet, where people connect with the spiritual world, and also the ones doing most of the "heavy lifting" on any kind of charity activity. They…

> where people connect with the spiritual world In the USA, this is quickly becoming an obsolete understanding of religion. Regular church attendance is down from 70% to just over 50% in the last 20 years, according to Gallup. People are leaving the churches. The real question is what will replace them. If people need community, build community centers. There are other solutions that do not rely on continuing to prov…

> obsolete

>just over 50%

k

(I feel like the glib single-character response stands on its own, but more verbosely: yeah, the trend isn't good, but a) there's no reason to assume it's linear, "fair-weather believers" is a thing, and b) I'm not a TIOBE follower, but let's say java use was 70% 20 years ago, and down to just over 50% today. Is "obsolete" the word you'd use?)

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you could earmark the collected taxes for creating secular alternatives? Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich people for charity.

>Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich people for charity. Grow up, there is no utopia and whatever works already is better than nothing.

Aside from being plain condescending or outright rude, you've shut down discussion about any approach that may be different. A better response would have been to ask them to suggest something, or show a case (another country, say) where this was already done.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#85
post #75
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where people connect with the spiritual world In the USA, this is quickly becoming an obsolete understanding of religion. Regular church attendance is down from 70% to just over 50% in the last 20 years, according to Gallup. People are leaving the churches. The real question is what will replace them. If people need community, build community centers. There are other solutions that do not rely on continuing to prov…

You should see some Soviet community centers before thinking they can replace anything. USA is highly uneven. In some states like Florida you can see churches on every other corner, and they are very active and developing, serving not only as community centers, but also as halls, child day care, hospitals, schools, galleries etc. No freaking "community center" can replace that.

> some Soviet community centers before

Could you elaborate?

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you could earmark the collected taxes for creating secular alternatives? Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich people for charity.

>Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich people for charity. Grow up, there is no utopia and whatever works already is better than nothing.

Define "works".

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#87
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where people connect with the spiritual world In the USA, this is quickly becoming an obsolete understanding of religion. Regular church attendance is down from 70% to just over 50% in the last 20 years, according to Gallup. People are leaving the churches. The real question is what will replace them. If people need community, build community centers. There are other solutions that do not rely on continuing to prov…

Are people fleeing churches or have they never been?

Do you mean in generational terms, or individual life experiences?

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such an important point. It's going to go against the grain at hackernews, but taxing churches in the US is a terrible idea. If you wanted to further the divide between the "liberal city"/"conservative rural" American cultures, this would be a great way to do it. If you grew up in a rural area of the flyover states you would know that churches form the backbone of these rural communities. For example, the chu…

Maybe you could earmark the collected taxes for creating secular alternatives? Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich people for charity.

“I don’t like the design of your pacemaker; mind if I take it out and use the parts to build you one I approve of” is not a sales pitch that works often.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such an important point. It's going to go against the grain at hackernews, but taxing churches in the US is a terrible idea. If you wanted to further the divide between the "liberal city"/"conservative rural" American cultures, this would be a great way to do it. If you grew up in a rural area of the flyover states you would know that churches form the backbone of these rural communities. For example, the chu…

Maybe you could earmark the collected taxes for creating secular alternatives? Or maybe create a system where people don't have to rely on churches and rich people for charity.

We already have secular alternatives, state welfare in many countries. A worse value for money system would be hard to imagine, populated with clock watching, work-to-rule types who actively use bureaucracy to avoid work.

Re: Montreal is taxing churches (2017)

#90
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where people connect with the spiritual world In the USA, this is quickly becoming an obsolete understanding of religion. Regular church attendance is down from 70% to just over 50% in the last 20 years, according to Gallup. People are leaving the churches. The real question is what will replace them. If people need community, build community centers. There are other solutions that do not rely on continuing to prov…

Are people fleeing churches or have they never been?

People are fleeing, in fact. An important thing to remember is that in these polls, when they say things like "No religion in particular" they don't actually mean that these people are Atheists. They mean they don't ascribe to a specific dogma, like Catholic, or Baptist. These people often may still think of themselves as "christian" but, for one reason or another, have rejected organized religion.

From 70% to 50% is such a large change in 20 years. For this to be caused by a change in _parenting only_ would mean that probably every child born 38 years ago until today never attended a church. (this data counts adults, so they would only start counting when they turned 18). That seems very unlikely.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-s...

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