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America’s Looming Primary-Care Crisis

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61–70 of 103 posts

Re: America’s Looming Primary-Care Crisis

#61
post #24

My understanding is that a major cause of America's burgeoning healthcare burden is the food environment. The argument I've heard smarter, better informed people than me make is: If healthcare were nationalized, it would incentivize the government to help fight the battle against itself in the context of unhealthy agricultural subsidies and policies. When the government subsidizes farming corn on a massive scale, and…

> it would incentivize the government to help fight the battle against itself in the context of unhealthy agricultural subsidies and policies. It would also incentivize the government to restrict all manor of activities in the name of “health.” Want to go rock climbing? Pay a tax. Want to ride a motorcycle? Pay a tax. Want ice cream after a hard running workout? Pay a tax. Don’t exercise enough? Pay another tax. Allo…

> And “liquid sugar” isn’t a problem. People choosing to consume too much of it is. I am perfectly healthy, normal weight, plenty of exercise and I like to drink Coke. Should I have to pay a tax or higher prices because some fat-ass makes the choice to drink it like water?

yes. we tax darts and alcohol - the medical cost of sugar probably well exceeds all risky outdoor activities by orders of magnitude. ~200 climbing accidents a year vs https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2013/10/27/sugar-linke...

Re: America’s Looming Primary-Care Crisis

#62
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It would also incentivize the government to restrict all manor of activities in the name of “health.” Want to go rock climbing? Pay a tax. Want to ride a motorcycle? Pay a tax. Okay I'll bite. Why shouldn't we do that? If you're going to 28x your death risk[1] by participating in a purely non-essential activity, why should you be able to externalize the costs to others? >Perhaps instead of taxing food, we instead ta…

Who is going to decide which activities are "non-essential" ? How will they go about determining whether there are more benefits or costs associated with a particular activity? Rock climbers can fall - they also build physical and mental fitness as well as learn to work together with and trust others in a high pressure environment. Motorcyclists can crash, but they're choosing a form of transport that is far more eff…

>Who is going to decide which activities are "non-essential" ?

A nonpartisan government panel of scientists. I realize with the current political climate in the us, that might be a tall order, but that doesn't immediately mean the idea should be dismissed.

>How will they go about determining whether there are more benefits or costs associated with a particular activity?

Cost benefit analysis based on empirical evidence?

>People are already incentivized by nature to sort out on their own what sorts of activities will allow them and their communities to flourish. Let them. We will all be better for it.

The examples you've listed lie on a spectrum. Indoor rock climbing probably isn't too negative, all things considered. OTOH motorcycles is much harder to defend. You're really going to risk your life to save a few grand a year on gas and parking?

Like I said before none of this is new. The government has already deemed tobacco to be more harmful than good. As such, it's heavily taxed. I don't find it outrageous to tax things that are similarly obviously more harmful than good.

Re: America’s Looming Primary-Care Crisis

#63
post #24

My understanding is that a major cause of America's burgeoning healthcare burden is the food environment. The argument I've heard smarter, better informed people than me make is: If healthcare were nationalized, it would incentivize the government to help fight the battle against itself in the context of unhealthy agricultural subsidies and policies. When the government subsidizes farming corn on a massive scale, and…

I think you are misunderstanding the incentives that drive politicians if you think extra health care costs would make them change their subsidy policy. They subsidize because the recipients are powerful donors who want them. It isn’t because it is sound fiscal policy.

Then fix that?

Powerful donors should not exist.

Re: America’s Looming Primary-Care Crisis

#64
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is similar to the US in terms of food consumption, and yet Canada has much better health care outcomes and lower health care expenditures. I'm not saying food isn't a factor, I'm just wondering how big a factor it is compared to universal access to health care.

It’s the food. The USA has 40% obesity rate vs 15% of Canada. We just eat more here, and we eat more garbage. Funny enough, if you chopped off the fattest 5-6 states, the USA would compare more favorably.

Anecdotally, coming to the US from Europe/Japan. The food there is ridiculously fat/large. At least as long as you want to spend less than $30/meal.

Re: America’s Looming Primary-Care Crisis

#65
There is just way more money in being a specialist. I don’t really understand why specialists like radiologists or anesthesiologists make >500k by default While primary doctors make much less. In Germany the medical associations set reimbursements rates per specialty. I assume it’s similar in the US.

Simple solution: balance reimbursements towards primary care. But I assume there is a powerful lobby with deep pockets that will fight such a change.

Re: America’s Looming Primary-Care Crisis

#66
post #24

My understanding is that a major cause of America's burgeoning healthcare burden is the food environment. The argument I've heard smarter, better informed people than me make is: If healthcare were nationalized, it would incentivize the government to help fight the battle against itself in the context of unhealthy agricultural subsidies and policies. When the government subsidizes farming corn on a massive scale, and…

I think you are misunderstanding the incentives that drive politicians if you think extra health care costs would make them change their subsidy policy. They subsidize because the recipients are powerful donors who want them. It isn’t because it is sound fiscal policy.

Yes, because cheap food is not something that would otherwise interest lots of people...

Increasing corn production also does not play to a crucial constituency in the Presidential elections...

This obsession with “rich donors” ignores that voters will also get mad at politicians for the consequences of eliminating those subsidies.

Re: America’s Looming Primary-Care Crisis

#67
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is similar to the US in terms of food consumption, and yet Canada has much better health care outcomes and lower health care expenditures. I'm not saying food isn't a factor, I'm just wondering how big a factor it is compared to universal access to health care.

It’s the food. The USA has 40% obesity rate vs 15% of Canada. We just eat more here, and we eat more garbage. Funny enough, if you chopped off the fattest 5-6 states, the USA would compare more favorably.

Where are you getting your numbers? Canada is at ~29% and the US is at ~36%.

Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_r...

https://ourworldindata.org/obesity

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/obesity-r...

Re: America’s Looming Primary-Care Crisis

#68
post #24

My understanding is that a major cause of America's burgeoning healthcare burden is the food environment. The argument I've heard smarter, better informed people than me make is: If healthcare were nationalized, it would incentivize the government to help fight the battle against itself in the context of unhealthy agricultural subsidies and policies. When the government subsidizes farming corn on a massive scale, and…

The US government already spends an absolutely incredible amount of healthcare, comparable to Canada or the UK (per capita). Medicare (old people), Medicaid (poor people) and VA, funds for people who don't pay emergency rooms. It's actually a huge amount of total spending, and while the government gets discounts (like health insurers) it's not radically more efficient.

The problem is, I think, often one of over-treatment. If hospitals are paid per procedure (as they are in the US) they are encouraged to do procedures that are actually bad for patients. Insurers can try to reign in over-treatment (to the horror of people who think that more healthcare is always a good thing), but regulators and customers (and activists) fear they do so targeting costs, not patient outcomes. It's all just a mess.

Here's a few issues:

* Over-testing is the most innocuous problem, but even tests aren't "free". At best, it's annoying and makes you not want to go back to see the doctor unless you know it's urgent (especially if it's costing you money or time). Tests might also the emphasis away from immediate treatments (both things that the doctor can do, and things the patient needs to do) as it becomes more of a "wait and see" game.

* Drugs. Obviously they cost money, and they can have side effects. Over-prescription is widely recognised as a major issue.

* Cesareans when they're a bad idea.

* Heart surgery when it's a bad idea.

* Aggressive treatment (especially of cancer) that statistically decreases the quality-adjusted life years a patient has, but hey you have to do something right?

I could go on, but there's really a ton of things where a hospital should do nothing, but has a lot of pressure (from patients and profit motives) to act. While insurers can try to control this, I think it goes without saying that they're also not entirely the good guys, and giving them too much power to reject treatments is also a bit worrying. Confrontational systems might work in the legal system, but it's too slow and expensive to work in healthcare.

Let's look at the special interests the US has (it's not just corn syrup!):

* Caps on doctor training spots. Obviously this is not unique to the US, but a free market solution is hardly going to work when you cap supply.

* Existing players (insurers, hospitals) want high overhead (regulations, admin) to create a moat.

* Drug companies in the US want high drug prices. Australia will subsidise drugs, but only if the drugs are priced right (which creates an incentive for companies to offer deep discounts in Australia). In the US, this kind of bargaining doesn't happen to the same degree. People online keep telling me that the spending on drugs is good though, because it's driving research (it's fine with me if Americans want to spend all their money subsidising the rest of the world).

Re: America’s Looming Primary-Care Crisis

#69
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps instead of taxing food, we instead tax obesity. Put the responsibility on the individual. You probably have better genes than my family. Lookup endomorph body type or reasons of reduced metabolism. Evolution has inversed survival of the fattest, so it seems ;)

>endomorph body type Somatypes are an ancient pseudoscience, while caloric intake relative to TDEE doesn't lie.

Think it through a bit more:

If obesity were taxed, there would be pressure to put loopholes in those taxes. Somatypes and "thrifty genome" and so on would be perfect hooks to hang those loopholes on. Result? Questioning that science becomes politically untenable, at least in some universities and research labs. After all, "the grants just follow the illiction returns", as the poet once said:

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1987/9/29/borking-up-the-...

Re: America’s Looming Primary-Care Crisis

#70
post #20

Anecdotal data point about primary care: About a year or so ago I subscribed to "direct/concierge primary care practice". I pay $80/month and in exchange getting an access to a primary doctor who takes care of keeping an eye on me, my blood pressure, all my prescriptions (some of which used to require monthly visits to specialists). I am also getting access to really cheap prices on labs, typically 30 min visits same…

Thank you for sharing this anecdote. I don’t think enough people understand the value of direct primary care. Of note, concierge primary care is more associated with something like one medical where you pay a membership in addition to your regular insurance co-pays. Direct primary care, or DPC, is full stop no insurance, only membership. And the doctor will limit their patient panel (the patients they see) to about 6…

How does this work with the insurance dynamics though? You say no insurance full stop, does that make the cost prohibitively high for some? I feel like insurance in a way is similar to a membership model for the patient in terms of cash flow although definitely not the same for the doctors. I'm not in the US so I don't really understand how medicaid works over there
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