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The Four Quadrants of Conformism

paulgraham.com

841–850 of 882 posts

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#841

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issues of cancel culture and "fighting for rights" should be unrelated. You can be against cancel culture and also against police brutality, for instance. The mob (and GP) wants to categorize you in an out-group so that one opinion you hold which they don't agree with means all your other opinions are irrelevant or invalid. If you ask anyone on the Right what they think about police brutality or racism, more than…

> Interestingly, those "fighting for human rights." are largely the same people trying to deny others their basic rights, such as possessing firearms for their personal protection. Gun ownership isn't a right. Yeah there's a piece of paper that says it is, but come on. It's dumb. How on earth do you even find these things comparable? On one side, people literally dying because they can't afford insulin , on the other…

Gun ownership is a natural right. You simply do not grasp the meaning of the word "right". It isn't what is in the constitution - that document simply puts a restraint on the US Government from taking away those natural rights.

Healthcare is not a right.

There is no "right" where others actions are required. Such thing cannot possibly be a "right" because it puts an obligation on another person to perform some action - hence, stripping that other person of their natural right to be sovereign over their own body.

A right is not something that can be granted - it simply exists. A right can only be taken away, through violence or the threat of violence.

I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't have access to affordable healthcare. I'm merely stating the fact that it is not a right.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#842
post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It directly impacts livelihood. It's physical in the sense that it's a real world, tangible harm. This is not at all the same thing as somebody merely saying something critical on Twitter. There's a clear distinction here.

There is a distinction but it's not the one you were originally making. Which seems important in a discussion about kinds of harms. Firing someone is not assault.

It's exactly the distinction I was making. That's why I said "it's not as harmful as physical violence" etc. I guess that wasn't enough to be clear.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do individuals meet their obligations to society (if any)? Do they do it through voluntary exchange, altruism and compassion. Or do they do it out of compulsion because they are threatened with violence? The latter is obviously not what we want, but its the State we have. Reducing the size of the state therefore sounds like a good plan, since it should reduce the amount of threatening with violence that has to be…

It seems to me that reasoning is backwards. People agree to come together in society because the believe that doing so will allow their needs to be met. If their needs are not being met but they still go along with society, then it is likely because of the threat of violence if they do not. For example, I recognize someone else's home as private property because I want my own home to be recognized as private property…

As I said, the State we have is violent by its nature. I'm suggesting this is not what we want.

You not trespassing on somebody's home because you don't want your own to be treated that way is a great moral to hold, but not shared by everyone. A society can only function like this if people are on the same page - if they share a collective moral framework. Traditionally this was through religion, but these days "god is dead", and large scale immigration has led to societies with no common traditions or moral backgrounds.

In a nation where people have arms, then the most legitimate reason not to trespass in somebody's house is that you don't want to be shot by its owner. The decision to trespass in somebody's home is a choice between your life or whatever you may gain from trespassing. The choice is obvious.

Burglary is quite high in the UK where people don't have arms (or if they do for sport or hunting, they are not allowed to use them for self-defence). It is lower (per capita) in the US.

And self-defence, even if lethal force is used, is never "violence." (A common misunderstanding)

The way individuals should meet their obligations to society is through the non-aggression principle. One should not support any kind of violence, or threat of violence against others. What follows then, is peaceful, voluntary cooperation.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#844
post #697
post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's taboo to discuss votes here, so please interpret this generally and not as a cute attempt at recursive self-reference. I think it's actually germane and intellectually interesting in this specific limited context. Aggressively non-comformist comments are the most reliable way to get downvotes on HN, but sometimes they result in massive upvotes. Passively conformist comments are the most reliable way to ge…

> Aggressively non-comformist comments are the most reliable way to get downvotes on HN, but sometimes they result in massive upvotes. Thinking on this further, I presume down votes are capped at 5 and up votes are uncapped because of this dynamic. The cost of saying aggressively non-conformist or even outright unpopular things here that don't run afoul of the guidelines is extremely low. I imagine that this good des…

Aggressively non-comformist comments also potentially result in a ban, especially when it comes to sensitive topics. The negatives outweigh the positives in many cases. Discussions here on scientific topics like human group differences border on outright delusional because there is no polite way of questioning the dogma.

Have you considered the case that you find the discussion delightful because it is just reinforcing your biases?

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#845
PG's essays are always thought provoking even when factually questionable.

This one is probably both.

I don't disagree with him about the need for advanced societies to protect free inquiry and independent thinking.

But the psychological taxonomy expounded here is simplistic and all the little things he attaches to it, like the psychoanalysis of tattletales, are probably not well supported by much evidence.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#846

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that reasoning is backwards. People agree to come together in society because the believe that doing so will allow their needs to be met. If their needs are not being met but they still go along with society, then it is likely because of the threat of violence if they do not. For example, I recognize someone else's home as private property because I want my own home to be recognized as private property…

As I said, the State we have is violent by its nature. I'm suggesting this is not what we want. You not trespassing on somebody's home because you don't want your own to be treated that way is a great moral to hold, but not shared by everyone. A society can only function like this if people are on the same page - if they share a collective moral framework. Traditionally this was through religion, but these days "god…

If I don't trespass because I don't want to be shot then that sounds like the homeowner is violating the non-aggression principle. They are using the threat of aggression to motivate me to do what they want.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, no one is advocating eliminating single family zoning nationally either. Your characterization of Biden’s plan is totally wrong.

Why is it wrong? I am reading from his own platform. Biden's plan specifically calls for ending state and local policies that allow "exclusionary zoning" and cites the "Home Act." Looking into the Home Act, "exclusionary zoning" refers to "single-family zoning" as "exclusionary zoning." 1. Biden plan citing Home Act: https://joebiden.com/housing/ 2. The home act impact on single family "exclusionary zoning": https://…

That's not what it says. Here's the actual text:

> As President, Biden will enact legislation requiring any state receiving federal dollars through the Community Development Block Grants or Surface Transportation Block Grants to develop a strategy for inclusionary zoning, as proposed in the HOME Act of 2019 by Majority Whip Clyburn and Senator Cory Booker. Biden will also invest $300 million in Local Housing Policy Grants to give states and localities the technical assistance and planning support they need to eliminate exclusionary zoning policies and other local regulations that contribute to sprawl.

Neither of those eliminate single family zoning for locations that want to keep them.

Here's the actual text of the HOMES act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/4808...

It requires communities that receive certain subsidies (community development block grants and surface transportation block grants) to make a plan to address inclusionary zoning. That's also not ending single family zoning; if you want to keep your existing zoning you can, you just can't get subsidized by the federal government to do it.

Also it doesn't even come close to "abolish suburbs". Curious if you still think that was an accurate characterization?

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#848
post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

And as another ex-Soviet I'd prefer they never do. There is already real-life intimidation. 2 Seattle Councilmembers who disagreed to vote to defund police to a sufficient degree had protests around the house, and Oakland mayor's house got protested and vandalized for the same crime, voting "wrong". These are just few, very recent examples out of a rich tapestry of everything from rioting with impunity to getting fir…

> Frankly, if trump goons [...] literally machine-gunned whoever perpetrated the Oakland mayor's house vandalism, it would be super counter-productive, but morally the right thing to do in my book.

How can you say something like this and still consider yourself a virtuous person. I will never understand the authoritarian mindset that thinks summary execution without trial is a legitimate response to property vandalism. It's not. It is murder.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#849

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem is the inability of media to separate the issues of protesting for change, and the organization Black Lives Matter. As such, the protestors are basically being ignored, and BLM are being lauded. BLM are the "face" of the protest - made this way mainly by left-wing media. But BLM is a questionable organization. It's aims are not merely supporting black lives - but there is an insidious Marxism to it (and a…

> there is an insidious Marxism to it (and an underlying anti-white racism) I see this said so much and invariably there is no rational justification provided for these beliefs beyond "A founder made an offhand comment one time in an interview about their educational background" Maybe I'll get a more thorough explanation on HN. In what way does Black Lives Matter have an "insidious Marxism to it"? And what is your de…

The founder stated that her and her co-founder are "trained Marxists". Their trainer was Susan Rosenberg, former member of the communist terror group M19CO, who happens to now be vice chair on the board of Thousand Currents, the non-profit organization which funds BLM. (After her prison sentence was commuted by Bill Clinton).

They describe themselves as a continuation of the "Black liberation movement" (careful wording to not directly link themselves to the terrorist BLA, who were part of M19CO, but there's a striking resemblance in the demands of the BLA and the BLM).

There are plenty of other "offhand" comments these co-founders have made, declaring themselves to be "anti-capitalist", against the nuclear-family, "abolitionist" (referring to abolishing the police and the state).

Oh, and they keep the best company, as you do: https://twitter.com/abogadosvenezu1/status/12700347462618030...

No rational justification? Perhaps you can point me to something suggesting they're not a Marxist organization? Maybe they once made an off-hand comment in support of private property for example?

If it quacks like a duck...

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, the State we have is violent by its nature. I'm suggesting this is not what we want. You not trespassing on somebody's home because you don't want your own to be treated that way is a great moral to hold, but not shared by everyone. A society can only function like this if people are on the same page - if they share a collective moral framework. Traditionally this was through religion, but these days "god…

If I don't trespass because I don't want to be shot then that sounds like the homeowner is violating the non-aggression principle. They are using the threat of aggression to motivate me to do what they want.

As I stated above, self-defence is never violence. This includes stating your intent to defend yourself, your family and your property even with lethal force. You shouldn't need to state it though, it should be assumed.

A homeowner cannot possibly know the motive of a trespasser, and it is therefore completely rational for them to use lethal self-defence, because they must assume the worst-case, that the trespasser may harm them or their family.

So there is no violation of the NAP here - the trespasser is the only one who may be in violation.

Obviously, the vast majority of people aren't out to kill. They don't want to harm someone for stepping onto their lawn, nor do they want to clean up a dead body. The use of self-defence is a last-resort if they feel in danger, or if they feel their property is under threat and it's worth more than the perpetrators life.

If the trespasser decides that somebody's property is worth more than their own life (which is the case if they assume the owner may use lethal self-defence), then there should be no expectation of the property owner valuing the life of the perpetrator more than their property. Both parties agree that the property is worth more than the aggressor’s life.

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