US universities under pressure to cut fees because of remote learning • Hacker News Board

Re: US universities under pressure to cut fees because of remote learning

#41

Post by mc32 » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

edgefield0 wrote: post #5

code4tee wrote: post #3

The Pandora’s box here is that far too little of these “fees” actually went to in-person instruction vs. bloated admin and other things not directly linked to core educational activities. Unless universities slash those bloated admin and other costs then they’re not really in a position to be giving everyone a “remote learning” discount.

These fees aren't for bloated admin. They support resources like the library, general student use fitness facilities, techology, and other student focused items. I get why students want to stop paying these fees during the pandemic since they can't use many of the resources. The issue is that most of the costs for these resources are fixed, mainly personnel and facilities. If you cut the fees, the university would ha…

How did they do it before? The fees widely outpace inflation. It’d be nice to see state schools be affordable to kids on a part time job —which used to be the case. That’s not been the case for a few decades.

Re: US universities under pressure to cut fees because of remote learning

#42

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

code4tee wrote: post #7

edgefield0 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These fees aren't for bloated admin. They support resources like the library, general student use fitness facilities, techology, and other student focused items. I get why students want to stop paying these fees during the pandemic since they can't use many of the resources. The issue is that most of the costs for these resources are fixed, mainly personnel and facilities. If you cut the fees, the university would ha…

Few would argue about fixed costs of libraries, but you be hard pressed to explain how libraries etc. are responsible for the cost of higher ed increasing far far faster than inflation to levels that are increasingly hard to justify. That has a lot more to do with the number of “Assistant Vice Provost of Underwater Basketweaving” type non-teaching non-research roles and positions that have developed over the years at…

is it a case of it's hard to do a job badly so we need more resources to work badly more ?

Re: US universities under pressure to cut fees because of remote learning

#43

Post by thaumasiotes » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

stutonk wrote: post #32

thaumasiotes wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Build many more free/cheap community colleges and make that much more accessible to everyone. They're already cheap, accessible to everyone, and ubiquitous. What would change?

In my state, most of the programs the community colleges offer are aimed either at credential acquisition or for transfer to a university; there are no four year programs. However, many of the teachers at these schools are also PhDs moonlighting from local universities where they teach upper-level subjects and the community college offers a handful of classes that are at the 300/junior level for certain subjects. The…

Comparing tuition at Cabrillo College (community college for Santa Cruz, CA) and SJSU (California State University in San Jose), it looks like a "normal" course costs $574 at the bottom-tier 4-year university vs $230 at the community college. If you take 2 or fewer classes in a semester at SJSU (as a full-time student, you're supposed to take 5), tuition falls nearly in half to $333 per class.

$6000 tuition per year is high enough to be prohibitive for some people. But those people are the focus of intensive recruitment and financial aid efforts by universities all up and down the hierarchy of status. That isn't the first place I'd look if I were seeking to answer "why aren't more poor people going to college?"

Re: US universities under pressure to cut fees because of remote learning

#44

Post by Bx6667 » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

edgefield0 wrote: post #5

code4tee wrote: post #3

The Pandora’s box here is that far too little of these “fees” actually went to in-person instruction vs. bloated admin and other things not directly linked to core educational activities. Unless universities slash those bloated admin and other costs then they’re not really in a position to be giving everyone a “remote learning” discount.

These fees aren't for bloated admin. They support resources like the library, general student use fitness facilities, techology, and other student focused items. I get why students want to stop paying these fees during the pandemic since they can't use many of the resources. The issue is that most of the costs for these resources are fixed, mainly personnel and facilities. If you cut the fees, the university would ha…

Bullshit. Prove it. Show me a page from their books (accountants not librarians) that proves it. Then I will believe you.

And you’re wrong on multiple levels because you say that money goes into “personal fitness facilities.” Oh, you mean the lavish resort-spas that have popped up on campuses suddenly? The ones that popped up around the same time that college became retardedly expensive? Yes, I believe those are the ones you are talking about. It makes you wrong because luxury time share condominiums aren’t necessary for educating people. It’s the same as if you threw those hundreds of millions in the toilet. Not “a fixed and necessary expense.” And that’s not even to mention the huge, gigantic bloat that is present everywhere and touches everything and very definitely reduces the quality of the actual academics of the school. Hey, let’s see you come up for a reason why text books cost hundreds of dollars a piece and are re-written every year with almost no changes except to the numbering of the problem set. This is going to be fantastic, better than the circus even. I should sell tickets to this comment. I am looking forward to your response.

Re: US universities under pressure to cut fees because of remote learning

#45

Post by vinceguidry » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC

gus_massa wrote: post #12

Retric wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities can still cut quite a few costs when facilities are underutilized without letting things decay. Buildings don’t need to be kept at room temperature without people. Most computers and lights can be kept off. Parking lots don’t need to be kept plowed and salted in the winter. Grounds can generally be less immaculate without long term issues. Bathrooms etc don’t need to be cleaned daily when not in use.

> Bathrooms etc don’t need to be cleaned daily when not in use. The university can save some money because it use less soap and bleach, but I hope they are still paying the cleaning crew.

Large orgs generally hire contracting companies who manage their own workforce.

Re: US universities under pressure to cut fees because of remote learning

#46

Post by new2628 » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC

gus_massa wrote: post #12

Retric wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities can still cut quite a few costs when facilities are underutilized without letting things decay. Buildings don’t need to be kept at room temperature without people. Most computers and lights can be kept off. Parking lots don’t need to be kept plowed and salted in the winter. Grounds can generally be less immaculate without long term issues. Bathrooms etc don’t need to be cleaned daily when not in use.

> Bathrooms etc don’t need to be cleaned daily when not in use. The university can save some money because it use less soap and bleach, but I hope they are still paying the cleaning crew.

Most such services are contracted anyway and not on payroll.

Re: US universities under pressure to cut fees because of remote learning

#47

Post by melq » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #34

neltnerb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree they're relatively cheap, but I think they could go a lot further and just be free. A few hundred dollars for a class is still a lot, and we all benefit from people being able to get educated.

Community colleges don’t offer much value. Even a few hundred dollars is way over priced because the degree won’t open hiring doors except in an extremely narrow set of jobs, like nursing and related care-giving - which would be better off as a standalone trade school. The value of a college degree is networking and the brand name recognition that the university has, which opens doors when your resume is churning thr…

Community colleges offer value to people like myself, who for whatever reason did not succeed in high school and would have no other access to higher education (and perhaps couldn't afford it even if they did). In my case, a few semesters of good grades allowed me to transfer to a state university that I was previously rejected from, and with a scholarship that allowed me to be able to afford it in the first place. I was then able to leverage the benefits of the networking you refer to, and was able to drop out and become a well paid programmer rather than a perpetually broke student who wasn't even learning much because I had to work full time to be able to attend in the first place.

>You can think of a college degree similar to a “certified organic” label on food. It doesn’t really mean anything

Not sure where you're from, but in the US this is not true at all. There are strict requirements for something to be certified organic. As of 10 years ago when I last worked on a farm, it was actually quite difficult to get certified.

Re: US universities under pressure to cut fees because of remote learning

#48

Post by trianglem » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

code4tee wrote: post #3

The Pandora’s box here is that far too little of these “fees” actually went to in-person instruction vs. bloated admin and other things not directly linked to core educational activities. Unless universities slash those bloated admin and other costs then they’re not really in a position to be giving everyone a “remote learning” discount.

Everything in your post is oft thrown around conjecture. Do you have sources?

Re: US universities under pressure to cut fees because of remote learning

#49

Post by enumjorge » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #41

edgefield0 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These fees aren't for bloated admin. They support resources like the library, general student use fitness facilities, techology, and other student focused items. I get why students want to stop paying these fees during the pandemic since they can't use many of the resources. The issue is that most of the costs for these resources are fixed, mainly personnel and facilities. If you cut the fees, the university would ha…

How did they do it before? The fees widely outpace inflation. It’d be nice to see state schools be affordable to kids on a part time job —which used to be the case. That’s not been the case for a few decades.

That’s the thing the puzzles me. Some of these universities’ annual tuition amounts to a healthy 1 year’s salary. How did they operate when this wasn’t the case?

Re: US universities under pressure to cut fees because of remote learning

#50

Post by thatcat » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

edgefield0 wrote: post #5

code4tee wrote: post #3

The Pandora’s box here is that far too little of these “fees” actually went to in-person instruction vs. bloated admin and other things not directly linked to core educational activities. Unless universities slash those bloated admin and other costs then they’re not really in a position to be giving everyone a “remote learning” discount.

These fees aren't for bloated admin. They support resources like the library, general student use fitness facilities, techology, and other student focused items. I get why students want to stop paying these fees during the pandemic since they can't use many of the resources. The issue is that most of the costs for these resources are fixed, mainly personnel and facilities. If you cut the fees, the university would ha…

The easy solution is for Unis to take an L for once and to cover costs with their enormous savings from the last 30 years of exponential growth. Those fees obviously are over actual cost to cover contingencies, a pandemic was inevitable on the time scale of a university. They probably should have gotten insurance, what do those admins do anyway if not plan for things such as this?