LSD chemist William Pickard to be released from prison • Hacker News Board

Re: LSD chemist William Pickard to be released from prison

#171

Post by gwern » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 3:47 PM UTC

plmu wrote: post #106

skissane wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1970s, my father worked as a research chemist for CSIRO (Australian government research lab), doing research into new pharmaceutical products. One of his colleagues decided it would be fun to manufacture some LSD after hours for personal use. The colleague made an error in calculating the quantities involved and ended up taking an accidental overdose. It didn’t kill him, but he spent some time in a psychiatric…

There have been reports of huge overdosis, e.g. by miscalculation by a factor of 1000 or even more. The physical harm was little to none. The mental harm varied greatly, there were even some people who got improvements in pre-existing mental conditions; with lsd in general, but also with large overdoses in particular.

The reference: https://www.gwern.net/docs/nootropics/2020-haden.pdf

Re: LSD chemist William Pickard to be released from prison

#172

Post by melq » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 3:48 PM UTC

Dumblydorr wrote: post #140

zelly wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make an example out of them and discourage others, prevent a cottage industry from forming. LSD manufacturing scales immensely. One lone wolf could create enough LSD to serve the whole United States demand, maybe even the global demand. LSD is also harder to manufacture. You generally need at least a MS degree and lab experience. The people who fit that profile tend to think about the future enough to respond to t…

Do criminals actually respond to deterrents though? Sam Harris argues otherwise in a couple of podcasts and I tend to agree...people break the law constantly without thought of the penalties. People text while driving when that could kill someone else.

I don't believe they do either. For example, it's often said that the death penalty is used as a deterrent, though it is clear from the data that isn't true.

https://www.aclu.org/other/death-penalty-questions-and-answe...

Re: LSD chemist William Pickard to be released from prison

#173

Post by ta17711771 » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

dspearson wrote: post #135

hnlurker wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crack and cocaine aren't really all that similar. Crack and meth are tho. Guess what, they both have the same mandatory mins too. When you look for racism everywhere, you find it everywhere. Let's be more objective, eh?

"Crack" and cocaine are literally the same drug.

Maybe at one point. It's changed.

Re: LSD chemist William Pickard to be released from prison

#174

Post by grayhatter » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

cheschire wrote: post #159

HenryKissinger wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the organized crime groups that sell these drugs do harm people, by way of murders, human trafficking, violent crimes and property crimes. Funding criminals and terrorists is surely worthy of punishment, do you not agree? But I agree that twenty years is excessive. A week of prison or two would be enough.

Ugh. Your post is a perfect example of a valid argument, and yet a bunch of people downvote you instead of just having a conversation. Two sheets is at least a few hundred tabs and that is definitely within the realm of possession with intent to sell, legally speaking. And your conclusion wasn't even harsh like "they earned 20" or anything. You clearly said the punishment was harsh for the crime. Jeez people, learn t…

It's a lot harder to write a coherent response than downvote, but given there's so much misinformation around the internet, you could do nothing but try to correct it by replying, 24/7 and still get nowhere. Downvoting hides bad comments, and depending on your metrics comments that are based on a flawed premise should be hidden.

Buying drugs do not meaningfully fund terrorism. So to criminally prosecute someone for buying drugs because it might stop them from giving money to the "bad guys" is an abuse of both humans and logic. The bad guys only sell drugs because they're the only ones willing to break the law. If you cared about stopping them, you legalize recreational use so non-criminals would make the money. But the whole argument for prosecuting individual users is because "drugs are bad and you're bad for using them". The whole drugs fund terrorism was it interesting lie or propaganda, (depending on your view). And lies even when repeated unintentionally or unknowingly should be downvoted.

Re: LSD chemist William Pickard to be released from prison

#175

Post by perl4ever » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 3:51 PM UTC

worldsayshi wrote: post #103

kitteh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Friend of a friend got caught with two sheets in the 90s and I think he got 20 years for each one. Downstate Illinois. My recollection was the weight of the blotter paper was considered as the drug itself and that easily increased the federal sentencing guidelines.

> 20 years for each one That is incredible. For a crime that harms noone.

Having no experience with it, nonetheless, the popular impression of LSD is that an incredibly small amount of it can be on something and inadvertently ingested, so I can see the perspective that making, having, or dealing it is an unacceptable risk of harm to people who didn't consent.

Is there some reason that's unrealistic?

Re: LSD chemist William Pickard to be released from prison

#176

Post by grayhatter » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 3:52 PM UTC

wayneftw wrote: post #164

cheschire wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh. Your post is a perfect example of a valid argument, and yet a bunch of people downvote you instead of just having a conversation. Two sheets is at least a few hundred tabs and that is definitely within the realm of possession with intent to sell, legally speaking. And your conclusion wasn't even harsh like "they earned 20" or anything. You clearly said the punishment was harsh for the crime. Jeez people, learn t…

That’s because everybody here already knows that keeping drugs illegal is what is actually funding criminal organizations.

https://xkcd.com/1053/

Re: LSD chemist William Pickard to be released from prison

#177

Post by ta17711771 » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 3:52 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #120

mindfulhack wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more acceptable and state-sanctioned to sell drugs that kill people while keeping them subdued, than ones that keep them alive and open their minds. I don't want to sound like a crazy 'conspiracy theorist' or a 'hippie', but I don't know to distill this sad and truthful statement more simply than that.

The problem with what you're saying isn't how it sounds, it's that there's no evidence for what you're saying. My understanding, looking at the history of psychedelic regulation, is that it had nothing to do with preventing people from opening their minds: the people who did the regulating don't think the concept of "opening your mind" even exists. I'll let John Ehrlichman (Nixon aide) explain: "The Nixon campaign in…

> that wasn't their intent

The intent of the beat cop and the high-level official isn't always 1:1.

Re: LSD chemist William Pickard to be released from prison

#178

Post by theptip » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

grayhatter wrote: post #165

jakemal wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason such an inhumane black market can exist is because no one is allowed to produce it legally. I would argue regulators are responsible for the harm caused by the trade.

No, you have your logic backwards. The conclusion that with lax drug laws, there'd be less violence associated with drug manufacturing and selling is correct. But the laws don't cause the violence, they make it so violent individuals are the only one's willing to fill the supply. If I outlaw [drug], I'm not responsible because you kill someone trying to sell [drug].

I disagree. If you take [action], and it was a necessary and sufficient condition for [consequence], then you are morally responsible for that consequence. (Sure, the individuals committing crimes in this concrete case are also morally respoinsible). In this case, I think it is correct to say that the laws cause violence, since that violence would not be happening otherwise.

There is a common trope that criminals sit down and decide what crime they will commit, and decide that drug dealing is the best one. In fact, that is backwards; if the TAM of crime is cut by 10x, then there are fewer jobs, and at the margin some will stop. And in the other direction, if there is no longer easy money to be made by selling drugs, then fewer would find their way into the drug business in the first place.

See prohibition in the USA for a natural experiment that supports my claims here.

Re: LSD chemist William Pickard to be released from prison

#179

Post by vekker » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

cheschire wrote: post #159

HenryKissinger wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the organized crime groups that sell these drugs do harm people, by way of murders, human trafficking, violent crimes and property crimes. Funding criminals and terrorists is surely worthy of punishment, do you not agree? But I agree that twenty years is excessive. A week of prison or two would be enough.

Ugh. Your post is a perfect example of a valid argument, and yet a bunch of people downvote you instead of just having a conversation. Two sheets is at least a few hundred tabs and that is definitely within the realm of possession with intent to sell, legally speaking. And your conclusion wasn't even harsh like "they earned 20" or anything. You clearly said the punishment was harsh for the crime. Jeez people, learn t…

It's downvoted partly because of the reasons other commenters have given and also because it shows ignorance about the drug market and about LSD specifically. Why participate in the discussion when you are not informed?

Re: LSD chemist William Pickard to be released from prison

#180

Post by BTCOG » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

MayeulC wrote: post #60

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was arrested and searched the police didn’t even find the 200 tabs I had on me. They found everything else, but LSD is incredibly easy to hide from regular law enforcement. They found everything else, but in typical stupid-police fashion, they ballsed that up too and ended up entering a nolle prosequi (do not prosecute) at the district court level. The police prosecutor was sufficiently annoyed, and I was suff…

> but LSD is incredibly easy to hide from regular law enforcement Not that I intend to leverage that knowledge, but you can't just write this and leave it at that. Why so? I've never seen any LSD, so I am not sure why that would be.

Blotter sheets and disguised in other liquids in plain sight. For example, if you were to sell LSD it could be as disguised as being a simple spiralbound notebook, but the parties in the know understand that the cardboard backing is entirely laid with LSD.