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The Four Quadrants of Conformism

paulgraham.com

591–600 of 882 posts

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#591
post #130

If you want to learn about the various types of people and how they relate to the world around them, study the French Revolution (in depth, not just a snippet). You will find every kind of person (in much more complex combinations than presented here), and how they participate/change/destroy/terrorize/etc. People today are no different we just have more technology.

Absolutely. Really, look at major events in history period. The fall of the Roman republic should be a regular topic of study in every western school. Understanding history is the greatest tool there is to understand people and the patterns we find ourselves in.

I'll strongly second the recommendation to read about the Roman republic for anyone interested in history. The number of parallels to modern America are striking.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It’s so unconventional that almost every Fortune 500 corporation has done so in unison. For literally the first time in history, and most of the Fortune 500 "speaking out" is just empty words without any real action. Look how progressive Amazon is, putting the BLM banner on their homepage for a couple weeks. Meanwhile Bezos is still perpetuating awful working conditions that disproportionately impact his POC employe…

So you have an external locus of control, that sounds like a personal problem but let’s roll with it. Maybe you’re right and the rules aren’t set by your peers, but that wasn’t the point of the example. The point was conventional-minded people can often feel rebellious by following a certain garden path of “conventional rebellion” that has been specifically laid out for them. That doesn’t actually make them independe…

As one example, flouting your skepticism in r/atheism is easy.

Coming out as an atheist in the Bible Belt without living on r/atheism first?

Orders of magnitude more difficult.

Being a pro-social justice liberal in the universities is trivial - the whole social environment supports it.

Be an open, conservative Catholic in one?

We are anti-slavery today because we really believe it, but let's not forget that one huge factor in us being so is that it's laughably easy to be so in the modern West.

Environment matters.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#593
post #74

This is all so static. Real life is more dynamic. An aggressive rule enforcer is an easygoing independent who got mugged and an easygoing independent is an aggressive rule enforcer who went to college. Damage done in the world comes more from failing to understand how people get influenced in their choices than from picking the wrong quadrant.

Any person's coordinates will change over time, that is true. I don't think that removes any value from the measurement system.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#594

Isn't it funny how things like this are never written by the boring types? It's always those wild, maverick, enlightened types seeking to describe themselves and, along the way, describe others, but mostly to describe themselves in flattering terms, with just a light veneer of modesty. (The self-assessed MBTI INTJs are just fantastically entertaining at this.) "All great ideas come from us," beams the self-described…

One essay written by one graduate on a contentious contemporary issue and the whole place is evil. The tone of the essay indicates it was a rhetorical exercise in dissent from a popular opinion. The modern judgement that such a thing is now abhorrent, is exactly the point.

I think perhaps this criticism suffers from a lack of imagination. People that cannot understand another person’s ideas are quick to label them evil.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I think it's a strong indicator when someone takes the most absurd or niche demand of a movement of millions of people seeking justice for some of the worst oppression and state violence as a way to dismiss the whole of that movement they're probably not operating in 100% good faith or they're consuming sources that aren't particularly balanced. Or they spend too much time on twitter, I'm definitely guilty o…

So the Rowling example is a good case here. She was defending a woman who was fired for personally, outside of work, saying there should be safe spaces for women off limits to trans people. You can disagree with the original claim and there's a good debate to be had there. But firing someone for a private opinion, and not one calling for violence, is not aligned with my values. Yes, Bari Weiss did resign because she…

I think with the Rowling Forstater case there's a nuance that her contract was not renewed, rather than being drummed out of the office in the middle of the day [0]. When you have a job representing an organisation there are expectations of how you act in your public role in a job and I would fully expect making discriminatory statements to see me not employed at a company if I didn't make an apology for them. I'd also expect making statements that talked down our product, or belittled a colleague, to be a disciplinary matter, we are professionals after all and if you want shoot the breeze with friends and family, twitter probably isn't the forum.

On Bari Weiss I've not really been following it, from a distance it seems like attention seeking. She's a public figure with a huge platform, people used their free speech to call her an idiot (no doubt tipping into abuse as the Internet tends to and that's a moderation issue). But we have a right to call columnists thick as shit. We all have a right of reply, speech is free (though less so in the UK where pretty much anything gets you sued for libel by free speech crusaders like Rowling). Speech isn't free of consequences, it doesn't exist in a vacuum and discriminatory and hostile speech has historically preceded violence against minority groups. As my previous comment getting downvoted shows, being in the outgroup on a forum can suck, but people don't have to uncritically upvote me and give me the warm fuzzies if they disagree.

Edit: typing on a phone so it's hard to do a long form reply. On the master thing, like I say I don't have a strong opinion one way or another, I'm happy for github to change it if only because it's shorter. I don't think it's a particularly valuable cause or hill to die on and I don't know of an instance of the enraged mob tearing down someone for keeping their branches named as master (though again they might use right of reply to call them a prick) but it's symbolic of white Liberal responses to injustice. We're not debating git branch names, except in the navel gazing tech world we inhabit. We're debating there being something like 5 days last year where the US police did not kill one or more people. We've (or rather for US readers, you've) got a president who wants to outlaw bail funds, protest medics, etc. The real cancel culture is the power wielded by states, as pretty much the entire ME for the past however many centuries could attest to or transgender, gay, black soldiers who serve or served the US in uniform, or corporations and lawyers, as blacklisted construction workers or Aaron Schwartz (sp) could tell you.

Discussions about whether we have to give Bari Weiss our eternal gratitude for excreting another column feel deeply unserious when they talk over real problems.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/18/judge-rules-...

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#596
post #587

This is so meandering and incoherent that it's hard to comment on, but the idea that silicon valley and finance types are "independent-minded" is downright laughable. It's pretty clear that those types are in lock-step with each other ideologically, maybe broadly split between east-coast and west-coast aesthetically. This categorization is such nonsense. People in the hard sciences don't neatly fall into a type, and…

[deleted]

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It’s so unconventional that almost every Fortune 500 corporation has done so in unison. For literally the first time in history, and most of the Fortune 500 "speaking out" is just empty words without any real action. Look how progressive Amazon is, putting the BLM banner on their homepage for a couple weeks. Meanwhile Bezos is still perpetuating awful working conditions that disproportionately impact his POC employe…

So you have an external locus of control, that sounds like a personal problem but let’s roll with it. Maybe you’re right and the rules aren’t set by your peers, but that wasn’t the point of the example. The point was conventional-minded people can often feel rebellious by following a certain garden path of “conventional rebellion” that has been specifically laid out for them. That doesn’t actually make them independe…

What is conventional rebellion? I label myself as anti-capitalist which is pretty uncommon in the US, but communism as a concept is not in any way unique or new and there have been millions of supporters of communism throughout history.

If I identify with values that less than 1% of the population identifies with, am I conformist?

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#598
Paul Graham continues to re-invent what others have pointed out in more succinct and clever ways.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/28/clever-lazy/

You can almost guess what Paul is going to write about - just see what cliche is being discussed on Twitter and come up with the laziest thought that an average programmer will find 'insightful' - that's Paul Graham's next 'essay' :)

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#599
People spend so much time on the "meta-conversation" about the ecosystem of ideas, and so little time talking about the actual ideas themselves.

What are these repressed debates people are so anxious about? Is it just race stuff?

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#600
As with all human attempts to categorize things, the 4 categories should actually be a spectrum, and the ends of the spectrum should be called into question based on PG's definition here. I mostly agree. I think I probably fall on the more "independent-minded" end of the spectrum (as we all like to think). But there is value in conformism and value in independence of thought. PG should realize the fact that he wrote this essay and is still alive is a good example of where things are today vs. in the era of feudalism or even the era of WW2 :)

I agree with his take on academia though. That whole institution is limping along.

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