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The Four Quadrants of Conformism

paulgraham.com

481–490 of 882 posts

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#481

The part of the essay that made me the most introspective was: " Princeton professor Robert George recently wrote: I sometimes ask students what their position on slavery would have been had they been white and living in the South before abolition. Guess what? They all would have been abolitionists! They all would have bravely spoken out against slavery, and worked tirelessly against it. " I had to stop and ask mysel…

It’s a weakly specified / trick question. Do you get to keep your knowledge of the world as it is today ? if not how are you different than people 200 years ago ? So you can just ask what your ancestor’s position would have been. Which we already know the answer to.

It's an interesting question for a lot of reasons. I live in the South, so perhaps if I had been living in the South in 1859 I would have supported slavery. But my ancestors were living in the North, in Pennsylvania and Ohio, and fought in the Civil War on the side of the Union, so presumably they opposed slavery. So if I had been reared by those ancestors, I likely would have opposed slavery. But then again, I'm a bit of a contrarian by personality, so I may have had the opposite viewpoint from my surroundings. Perhaps not opposing slavery in the South, but opposing fighting to preserve it. Perhaps not supporting slavery in the North, but opposing a destructive war and supporting the rights of individual states to determine their own fate and secede. Or personal things could be involved. Suppose as a northerner I saw an opportunity to join the family of a wealthy Southern planter. Or as a southerner, I wished that certain slaves who were friends could be free. So it goes down to what your environment is and what person you are in that environment.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#482
Abundantly clear from his Twitter that like so many others that are used to having an unassailable platform of privilege to express themselves, PG has recognized that normal people now have a voice to push back and criticize opinions he has, and so he's joined those expressing "concern" about this.

Instead of expressing in concrete terms his views to make them available for criticism, he talks about the dangers of "cancel culture" instead, presumably because he knows his views are now beyond community norms and they'd get him cancelled.

This essay is a scaffolding effort to rebrand people that would seek to express intolerant opinions as "independent minded" and "free inqueryiers" so that they can escape criticism.

Nah sorry not gonna work.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#483
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideas of social justice and equality spring from the independent quadrant. These ideas have become the rules that conventional quadrant follow and expose. This doesn't seem to contradict itself.

Social justice and true equality aren't conformist ideas though. We live at a time when wealth inequality is around the highest since our country has kept track and you think equality is a mainstream conformist idea?

Virtually all intelligent people take "equality" to mean equality of opportunity. The type of equality you seem to mean is where individual personalities, talents and desires don't exist. In other words, where everyone is the same person. What a boring world. I just don't think inequality matters as long as the poorest in society are never cold or hungry. That's pretty much where we are today.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#484

While I agree with some of this, there's a hubris in it that I find a bit distasteful. It seems to claim that there's only one type of person needed for society to thrive. Not surprisingly, it's the type that most aligns with who he identifies himself to be. I think that the article is using caricatured descriptions of two categories that are more broad (people who are oriented toward change and those who are oriente…

I didn't think about it until I read your comment, but I really got a eureka moment from reading this, so thank you, and this is what I love about HN's comment sections.

The irony shouldn't be lost that pg is primarily arguing for freer discussion of ideas, while at the same time showing the same traits of "other-ing" (i.e., folks not in your group are somehow defective) that I believe is the most important reason that free discourse seems to be in decline.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#485

Worth noting that the "aggressively non-conformist" quadrant includes not just inventors and leaders but also criminals and trolls. For some reason the essay downplays that. Also, is it just me, or does it seem like most of pg's recent essays are attempts to "poison the well" against anyone who might try to hold him and his peers accountable for their contributions to the sorry state of our society? He doesn't direct…

"I'm not a psychopath/sociopath, I'm aggressively non-conformist!"

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#486

Worth noting that the "aggressively non-conformist" quadrant includes not just inventors and leaders but also criminals and trolls. For some reason the essay downplays that. Also, is it just me, or does it seem like most of pg's recent essays are attempts to "poison the well" against anyone who might try to hold him and his peers accountable for their contributions to the sorry state of our society? He doesn't direct…

I think you can apply his quadrant to usage of mask during Covid and the result speaks for themselves: Let's play this out for mask wearing: Top Left: Top doctors asking people to wear masks Bottom Left: People who are wearing masks Bottom Right: People who occasionally use masks, or alternatives, bandanas, etc. Top Right: People who don't want to use masks because of freedom.

I would describe mask wearing somewhat differently:

Top Left: People who want to throw anyone who isn't wearing a mask in jail.

Bottom Left: People who are wearing masks everywhere, including situations where it doesn't make sense to, because that's what the rules say.

Bottom Right: People who wear masks when it makes sense to wear them, and don't wear masks when it makes sense not to, even if that isn't what the rules say (for example, not wearing a mask when taking a walk outdoors where you can easily social distance, even if the letter of the rules in your area say to wear a mask whenever you leave your house).

Top Right: People who insist on pointing out that the rules on mask wearing are arbitrary and don't allow for common sense, even as they wear masks when common sense says you ought to.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kindness Yoga shut down after their pro-BLM posts online were criticized as "performative activism" by employees: https://coloradosun.com/2020/06/29/kindness-yoga-closure-dur... A woman in Kentucky was fired after 20 years from her job as a Hearing Instrument Specialist after she said she didn't support BLM in a facebook video: https://reclaimthenet.org/tabitha-morris-cancel-culture/ (Her GoFundMe was also shut down.…

Whenever I see lists like this, what's interesting to me is what's omitted. In this particular case I don't see mention of workers getting fired for trying to organize or advocate for unions[1]. I don't see the abuse that gets piled on cops who report the misdeeds of their colleagues[2]. And I don't see the NFL effectively blacklisting Colin Kaepernick for his views on police brutality. It seems like it's only "cance…

I'll add Colin Kaepernick to the list for next time! I should also include things like the woman who lots her internship after she made a bad pro-BLM analogy: https://jonathanturley.org/2020/07/03/ima-stab-you-connectic...

In my mind, "cancel culture" refers to the phenomenon where an outraged group (usually on social media) seeks to retaliate against someone over a (possibly inferred) political opinion. Firing union organizers or harassing whistleblowers is bad, but doesn't fit into my mental model of cancel culture.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#488

  aggressively conventional-minded │ aggressively independent-minded
  ─────────────────────────────────┼────────────────────────────────
     passively conventional-minded │    passively independent-minded

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#489

Abundantly clear from his Twitter that like so many others that are used to having an unassailable platform of privilege to express themselves, PG has recognized that normal people now have a voice to push back and criticize opinions he has, and so he's joined those expressing "concern" about this. Instead of expressing in concrete terms his views to make them available for criticism, he talks about the dangers of "c…

> an unassailable platform of privilege to express themselves

Anyone can start a website and post essays on it. If many more people read PG's essays than other people's, that's because he has done things that attract a wider audience.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social justice and true equality aren't conformist ideas though. We live at a time when wealth inequality is around the highest since our country has kept track and you think equality is a mainstream conformist idea?

Virtually all intelligent people take "equality" to mean equality of opportunity. The type of equality you seem to mean is where individual personalities, talents and desires don't exist. In other words, where everyone is the same person. What a boring world. I just don't think inequality matters as long as the poorest in society are never cold or hungry. That's pretty much where we are today.

> That's pretty much where we are today.

What on earth makes you think that?

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