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The Four Quadrants of Conformism

paulgraham.com

461–470 of 882 posts

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#461

Ah, conventional minded people are those who insist that those who break the rules are bad, worthless in society, and should be punished. Then Mr. Graham goes on to say that the rules of civilized, successful, wealthy societies are that everyone should be free to debate even the worst of ideas, and the people who prevent this or disagree with this are bad, never become entrepreneurs (a laughable thought), are not wor…

The only rebuttal to PG in your comment is ARAMCO, which was a state-run org till recently, and is nothing like the companies PG is talking about. Try again.

There are at least 2 others. Reread and see if you can find them.

Also, being state run doesn't mean you aren't innovative. It's a different game but still requires innovation. Companies don't grow and grow and grow without any innovation at all.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that the "systemic racist" is overplayed, yes. And the graph is sourced.

Neither of those sources prove that BLM is only about white on black murder. Check out this source if you are interested in learning about the goals of BLM https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

But it's nuanced and more than can be defined on a page with vast sub cultures and groups all lobbying for power.

As is any social movement, I think there are some problems inherent with it, like the inability to criticize aspects of the movement without being considered a racist.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#463
The idea that you can be independently minded as a quant or at a startup is absurd.

If you don't parrot the same bullshit as everyone else as a startup employee, you get fired without feedback because you aren't a "good culture fit." You have two choices: conform, or work somewhere else.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#464
Never thought I'd see the day that a pg essay crosses over with /r/politicalcompassmemes

The problem with "discussing ideas" as a framing is that it exists in opposition to something. What is that something?

Those whose position favours the status quo would read it in opposition to "not discussing ideas", which is obviously bad. However, to those who find the status quo untenable, the opposite position is "acting on ideas".

Following pg's example, let us consider the following classic debate topic: "is slavery good?" A plantation owner might find themselves tickled by a lively discussion on the subject, replete with a cornucopia of Enlightenment principles and classical liberalism and such. A slave might find this discussion less interesting, because no outcome would lead to their freedom.

It is perhaps telling that slavery was not abolished through free inquiry or the discussion of ideas. It was abolished through acts of state power and, ultimately, violence. Are we to believe in an alternate history where the South was debated out of its peculiar institution? The discussion of ideas gave way to acting on those ideas. The alternative would be a society of endless, meaningless rambling.

Today, if you were still debating "is slavery good?", you would not be a brave free-thinking iconoclast, you would be either an idiot or a very devoted racist. You would get uninvited from lectures and yelled at on Twitter, not because your ideas are too advanced, but because they're too far behind. The debate is over, and the actual free-thinkers have moved on.

It's sad to say, but I think the real lesson of this essay is that political ideas are just like music taste. Whatever your parents were listening to is outdated and embarrassing, whatever the kids are listening to is just angry noise, and miraculously your generation was the only one to stumble upon that which is profoundly, timelessly good.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#465

The idea that you can be independently minded as a quant or at a startup is absurd. If you don't parrot the same bullshit as everyone else as a startup employee, you get fired without feedback because you aren't a "good culture fit." You have two choices: conform, or work somewhere else.

His point is that the founders and underlying ideas for startups and quantitative trading companies need to be unconventional in order to succeed. Otherwise the returns will already have been captured by the market (in the case of trading) or the product will already have been built (in the case of a startup)

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. This whole article just left me quite cold. I mean, as far as I can tell, all these people running around claiming that Covid19 is a hoax are (apparently) very aggressively independent! We, the passive conformist sheeple, are bound by the pesky laws of physics and math - but not these aggressively independent thinkers! Nosir. They question all the rules . > So a pack of teenagers who all flout school rules in…

Let's play this out for mask wearing: Top Left: Top doctors asking people to wear masks Bottom Left: People who are wearing masks Bottom Right: People who occasionally use masks, or alternatives, bandanas, etc. Top Right: People who don't want to use masks because of freedom.

[deleted]

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#467
post #109

I have come to intensely dislike most of PG's essays, for many reasons, but the two main ones are that 1/ he plays fast and loose with the facts, reduces the whole history of (the various peoples of) humanity to a single arrow, and confuses demonstration with affirmation and, more importantly 2/ he has an unhealthy obsession with "classifying" people, by which he actually means ranking them, from top to bottom. The p…

His writing on lisp and the life of his startup were much better reads. He may have some valid points but it is hard to read a really rich person (who got rich really young) handwave away large swaths of society.

Baskets of deplorables.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He had a habit of always making the hero of his narrative the “brave startup founder”.

Unfortunately I actually LOLd when I got to that point in the essay. It was not a surprise. If being an SV founder or VC requires nonconformism, it's a very mainstream kind of nonconformism which has been part of the culture since the 1940s. (By some accounts, even earlier.) IMO you cannot seriously claim to be a nonconformist if you unquestioningly accept and promote the framing of a game and a set of rules which ha…

I'm of the opinion that the non-conformists these days are the people that think capitalism shouldn't exist at all and choose to minimize their role in it as far as they can without starving and going homeless.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only read the discussion of "aggressive conformism" at the end as a giant subtweet of cancel culture. There's a real, and sudden, movement in the political center against this idea (c.f. the Harpers letter), and pg is clearly picking a side. Which is fine, I guess. I personally didn't think the letter was so awful. It's hardly the worst problem in a world where we have federal paramilitary units being deployed…

The Harper's letter was hardly from the political center as most people conceive; Noam Chomsky signed that letter.

It's complicated. There's for sure a generational skew here, most of the signers were older established voices[1]. While there was some diversity, there were very few truly progressive voices, and what ones there were tended to come out later expressing that they were mislead about the way the letter would be presented.

The text of the letter is hard to argue against. The context in which it was presented, and especially the way it was leveraged on the right as an "a-ha!" moment to disparage many of the demographics that were supposed to have "signed" it was quite different.

Republicans view that letter as an admission of guilt on the part of the left, when the intent was to call back absolutist rhetoric everywhere. It didn't work.

[1] From the perspective of the activist left: the powerful looking to suppress checks on their power from new voices.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#470
Lots of great ideas here -- but in keeping with all top-vintage Paul Graham essays, he takes his best points to about 130% of their validity.

So I'd like to weigh in on this assertion: "To be a successful scientist, for example, it's not enough just to be right. You have to be right when everyone else is wrong."

Not so. To be a successful scientist, you need to be orderly, fast and well-connected in finding all the rest of the Next Rights, once a few of your peers (or you) have opened up a whole new river of truth by finding the first right. (See James Watson, Ernest Lawrence, etc.)

You can see this in the evolution of practically every exciting field, whether it's subatomic physics, molecular biology, paleontology, etc.

This dynamic requires a fifth state in Graham's admirably simple 2x2 grid. We need to recognize people that can be defiant non-conformists when the moment presents itself -- and then work within the system to make the most of their second and third-order insights as the world embraces their big idea.

The concept of the brilliant, isolated, irritable genius is a mainstay of a certain kind of movie or novel. But in real life, the most effective disrupters are just as good at forming large teams that lead the charge toward the next right (once they've found their breakthrough idea) as in coming up with that breathtakingly strange new idea in the first place.

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