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The Four Quadrants of Conformism

paulgraham.com

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Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#451

Post by toiletfuneral »

tome wrote: post #191
oisdk wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it bizarre that comments like these seem to think the main battle ground for free speech is young people like myself "cancelling" people on twitter, when at the same time protestors are being arrested by secret police in the US. Like there is an authoritarian government right there for you to criticise, but you choose only to talk endlessly about tweets like "can white people make rice, or is it cultural appro…

> protestors are being arrested by secret police in the US I genuinely don't have reliable information to determine whether they are peaceful protestors or violent rioters, nor whether the police are secret or not. Where would I go to find out?

just to be clear, you're saying if someone broke a window they deserve to be kidnapped off the street by anonymous military personnel.

Love this country

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#452

Post by krapp »

jimbokun wrote: post #395
krapp wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. I never thought I'd see the day when Americans seem more concerned about "SJWs" exercising their free speech rights than actual secret police tossing political dissidents into black vans but I guess here we are.

This is a non-sequitur. Getting low level employees fired for some kind of political faux pas does absolutely nothing to combat Trump's gross abuses of power.

Many people oppose "cancel culture" and "SJWs" because they see them as part of a vast leftist conspiracy imposing a political agenda across media, arts and academia and oppressing free (read: right-wing) speech at every turn. Many of the same people support Trump's abuses of power being wielded against those they consider "leftist agitators" like BLM and Antifa.

Both cases linked by fear of and opposition to the existential threat of "the left" as an insidious enemy within and a willingness to accept any means necessary to stop it.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#453

Post by rclayton »

free_rms wrote: post #435
rclayton wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s actually my point. Overestimating the reach of cancel culture because you live in a liberal enclave.

Maybe we're very precisely estimating the reach and are appropriately terrified? If you can't get the people you want, but you really want to get somebody ...

And what are the consequences of you getting cancelled? Really? You lose your job? People are fired everyday for silly things or no reason at all. But would you really want to continue working for a company/culture so incapable of enduring free thought? Perhaps companies need to suffer the consequences of losing talent to realize how intellectually bankrupt this process is.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#454

Post by toiletfuneral »

ptero wrote: post #267
rclayton wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I would like for someone to enumerate all the people who have been “cancelled” and then compare it to those that have been violently attacked.

Your "just count the cancelled" does not work. I have lived in the East Europe pre-Perestroyka and back then, it was "just count political prisoners; see how few there are!". And it was true -- there were not that many by 1980s. But there were few not because thought police was not real, but because any appearance of acting against it would be quickly dealt with. So very few people would dare. That's the path we are…

lololol so people being mean on twitter is what we should be worried about right now, not the increasing power of surveillance capital and the hyper militarized state?

cool thanks for the warning dude

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#456

Post by [deleted] »

BurningFrog wrote: post #304
rclayton wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I would like for someone to enumerate all the people who have been “cancelled” and then compare it to those that have been violently attacked.

The point, to spell it out, is about chilling effects. If some organization starts killing everyone wearing a blue hat,pretty soone nobody would wear a blue hat. And then people like you would think that since no blue hat wearers get murdered, this is fine. Even call it "non violent" perhaps.

[deleted]

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#458

Post by defnotashton2 »

What he really after US vs them tendency of tribalism, he is upset at the overreach of the left and their lacking self criticism. Then ironically lacking self criticism presents an us vs them argument.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."

F. Scott

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#459

Post by mywittyname »

> In the past, the way the independent-minded protected themselves was to congregate in a handful of places

> That may not work this time though,

Ah yes, the classic, "things used to be so much better" argument. Which yeah, if you ignore things like McCarthyism then it probably seems that way. I'm curious how many black, female professor feel that they would have faced less intolerance in American universities before the intolerance wave of the 1980s.

I personally see tolerance as a trade-off in a lot of scenarios. Tolerating discrimination necessarily infringes on the freedoms and well-being of the victims. And tolerating anti-discrimination infringes on the freedoms of the aggressors. Both groups cannot be equally free in such a matter, because the freedom of one is at the expense of another.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#460

Post by marcus_holmes »

krapp wrote: post #452
jimbokun wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a non-sequitur. Getting low level employees fired for some kind of political faux pas does absolutely nothing to combat Trump's gross abuses of power.

Many people oppose "cancel culture" and "SJWs" because they see them as part of a vast leftist conspiracy imposing a political agenda across media, arts and academia and oppressing free (read: right-wing) speech at every turn. Many of the same people support Trump's abuses of power being wielded against those they consider "leftist agitators" like BLM and Antifa. Both cases linked by fear of and opposition to the exi…

I see both cancel culture and Trump's strange presidency as part of the same problem - the one that PG is talking about.

The rise of dogmatic orthodoxy and the inability to have a civilised dicussion where the participants disagree yet respect each other.

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