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Indian IT consultancies struggle against technological obsolescence

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Re: Indian IT consultancies struggle against technological obsolescence

#31

It boils down to the Business Model. Having worked extensively with the major Indian vendors, with people from India in different settings, onsite and offshore, I observed that they simply focus on labor costs in Europe and elsewhere. Salespeople tried to sell us dozens of teams with “cheap” developers of every skillset we wanted. But that is not how software is done. I want outcomes not masses. I need creativity to…

I've talked with a lot of different Indian and similar 'offshore' engineers, developers and managers and most of them ended up in the place they did due to choices between being a farmer or being an IT person, being in a poor province vs. being in a less-poor province, and being able to support your parents. Almost none of them had an upbringing, background or base passion for technology or IT in general.

While you can in theory do your IT things with no passion at all, and kill all creativity and still be productive, it often ends up being just 'mass' like you describe, a transformed version of the classical western 'consultants' that usually end up being companies that focus on sales and billable hours and never really deliver what the people needed (referring to earlier HN posts about accenture and deloitte).

I get that at some point all companies converge on the same generic point of being in the business of making money at all costs, and making it 'measurable' via sales, hours and contracts. It doesn't matter if it's software, financial, legal etc. At least not to them at that point.

The bigger problem with this is that the IT systems are not as well defined or a closed system as the other examples might be. A ledger would be simple to verify in comparison: you apply a fixed set of rules to a fixed period of data and it must result in something within a known range. With software you can do a little bit of determining that the 'borders' of your 'box' of functionality would be, but to do an exhaustive verification is so far from profitable that it's only done in a few highly regulated systems like flight controllers.

So now we have a system where a lot of money and power vectors are involved that would (somewhat) work for legal and finance and the likes (i.e. the classical big ones that existed long before software did) and a constant attempt to apply it to IT and hide everything they don't like about getting the wrong results. It still eats resources like the other kinds of work, but doesn't produce the results you would expect for the resources that went in to it.

Software doesn't operate in a vacuum, disconnecting users, buyers, sellers, or stakeholders in general is bad for everyone and because of endless change and interaction the whole model of 'buying a product' hasn't been realistic since 2000, and with connected OT (think SCADA and the likes) it won't even apply to embedded systems anymore.

Re: Indian IT consultancies struggle against technological obsolescence

#32
post #11

Well, at least from where I sit they're still getting plenty of business as with the apparent sun-setting of the H1-B program companies are just hiring offshoring firms instead.

> with the apparent sun-setting of the H1-B program companies are just hiring offshoring firms instead.

Are you speculating here or have seen an actual trend out there?

Re: Indian IT consultancies struggle against technological obsolescence

#33
post #5

I recently joined a company where my main task is to modernise a business critical application built and supported by Wipro over ten years ago. Everything is still on .Net 3.0 (first released in 2007), and despite hundreds of pages of documentation the developers seem to have little understanding of what the application actually does for the business. The impression I have is that their business model is geared towar…

Adding to this. I've worked with people from Tech Mahindra. Some observations. 1. Very green staff that have little to no coding skills/ability. 2. Communication barriers, even when the people are local. 3. Jobs that any other organization would do with one person being split into 3 different roles with a net result of costing more than hiring the more expensive onshore devs. 4. Because of #3 software takes longer to…

The ultimate take-away from "Mythical Man Month" is that the limit of adding people is not zero extra-work-per-additional-person, but unbounded negative extra-work-per-additional-person.

Re: Indian IT consultancies struggle against technological obsolescence

#34
post #5

I recently joined a company where my main task is to modernise a business critical application built and supported by Wipro over ten years ago. Everything is still on .Net 3.0 (first released in 2007), and despite hundreds of pages of documentation the developers seem to have little understanding of what the application actually does for the business. The impression I have is that their business model is geared towar…

Here’s the thing, I honestly think these consultancies are going to be feasting for decades to come with all these enterprise companies shifting to the cloud. That is the very definition of ‘their business model is geared towards building one thing, learning one technology, and then exploiting it for as long as possible with minimal evolution.’. This kind of lock-in at the enterprise level is a dream come true for th…

I dunno, it could go either way.

AWS is not cheap, unless you really understand the business domain, or someone else has done the hard work of understanding the business and re-architecting the design to leverage AWS' value propositions. It is painful to watch a team that doesn't understand what is really going on blindly rip and replace on-prem VM's with EC2's that only need to for example, run a script once a day to perform an extract and load operation in a few minutes. Even when you run pico instances, applying the same design culture across the enterprise adds up in a big hurry.

This isn't Indian or non-Indian, this is "whether they deeply care about the customer enough to look for innovation on your own". You can't agile your way to nor bottle up and sell by the caseload innovation. I wish like hell we could, I'd buy a Panamax-load of that and mainline it into the fusion and AGI problems. What jrumbut said in this thread has some validity in certain scenarios, "Outsourcing turns an investment opportunity into an expense." And like the-dude said, the initial innovation is the automation behind aaS. It is up to those who build on top of aaS to carry that innovation momentum forward by adding their own innovation, the innovation isn't transitive nor inheritable by just using *aaS, which seems to be happening a lot currently though that is changing at an accelerating pace.

Re: Indian IT consultancies struggle against technological obsolescence

#35
post #23
post #20

Major IT companies in India get a lot of revenue from maintainence projects and there is usually no scope for making major changes or innovating there. The time and material billing for these make it quite attractive from a revenue point vs fixed bid greenfield projects. I don't think that situation will change anytime time soon as along as these companies stick to services.

Yes, one word to say — JAVA. It's pretty much, the one and only thing that keeps enterprisey software maintainance people occupied. Thought, the Java is finally on decline on the backend. Android is pulling Java devs from enterprise, and cheaper to use languages displace Java there.

[deleted]

Re: Indian IT consultancies struggle against technological obsolescence

#36
post #5

I recently joined a company where my main task is to modernise a business critical application built and supported by Wipro over ten years ago. Everything is still on .Net 3.0 (first released in 2007), and despite hundreds of pages of documentation the developers seem to have little understanding of what the application actually does for the business. The impression I have is that their business model is geared towar…

Adding to this. I've worked with people from Tech Mahindra. Some observations. 1. Very green staff that have little to no coding skills/ability. 2. Communication barriers, even when the people are local. 3. Jobs that any other organization would do with one person being split into 3 different roles with a net result of costing more than hiring the more expensive onshore devs. 4. Because of #3 software takes longer to…

What you describe is clearly bad for the organization on the whole, is there some way this decision is being made to benefit the decision maker over the organization? Either for political reasons or maybe even illegal reasons?

Re: Indian IT consultancies struggle against technological obsolescence

#37
post #21

This is still very shallow thinking. Every company that views tech as a cost rather than a way to generate revenue will invest in these contracts/offshore centres, and that is the noose round their neck. In most cases, but not all, hiring consultants suggests you don't understand enough about your own business to manage it yourself ( insert image of senior executive trying to work out the Zoom so they can check their…

>Btw, some places are very good for outsourcing (Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Belarus) I've had just as many problems working with outsourcing firms in Russia and Ukraine as I have with Indian firms. And I've had the same problems working for companies that tried to hire very cheap US based developers in house. I think the problem occurs whenever developer cost is your primary metric.

It's not where you outsource to its the mere fact of paying people who don't work for you or care for more than billable hours (at least the leadership if not the consultants too). You can get that down the street too, though it's easier to check up on what's going on. Having employees you vetted/hired overseas is way different than hiring some firm to provide bodies who are unknown to you and come/go all the time.

Re: Indian IT consultancies struggle against technological obsolescence

#38
post #4

There is little substance in the article. Biggest point made is that enterprise software is easier to administer and use. I feel they entirely missed the elephant in the room : SaaS.

Yep, SaaS is the real outsourcing killer. And the future seems to be one where even more infrastructure is abstracted away i.e. Serverless/PaaS. This is changing the way software is built and tested. Its empowering people who have been through coding bootcamps to start delivering value.*

* please note that I have nothing against coding bootcamps, the point is that most graduates of these bootcamps are by definition very new and green to Software Development.

Re: Indian IT consultancies struggle against technological obsolescence

#39
As an Indian there are reasons you can point out for this.

Education: Engineering syllabi are pretty outdated. And due to a work-just-enough-for-month-end-salary mindset, professors are against being up-to-date. As a result, everywhere but in top notch colleges, quality of teaching is piss poor.

The "Rat Race": There is no better word to describe this. 90% of people who enter computer science / engineering courses don't have any interest in computers. They enter because they scored well in entrance exam (which can be games by studying some books relentlessly for some years), and since Software is still one of the highest paying fields. And quite some of them continue their relentless pursuit for a good "package" by grinding Hackerrank / leetcode. It is literally a rat race.

The same mindset will create an impression that being a manager is superior to being a programmer. Because you are "managing" people. These people do all kind of office politics to become manager, and spend rest of their life ruining someone else's life.

You can't expect these kind of people to love their job or even do it properly.

Hierarchy: Related to above point, in India, you don't oppose or even question an upper officer or elder's decision, because ELDERS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT HERE IN INDIA. That's why so many people want to be manager.

Lack of interest in improving education: In many Indian engineering colleges, one year is wasted teaching theoretical subjects like chemistry and physics. No computer science related subject except basic C Programming (Lol not even malloc() and free()) are taught. This appears to be purely done in order to provide jobs for people who had studied these subjects. While teaching these subjects may have marginal benefits, they are outweighed by pure rote learning oriented assesment sysem and wasting one year of CSE programme. That's a bad trade-off for someone interested in CS. All entrance exams are based on Math/Physics/Chemistry and we have learnt enough of that. STOP the old age tradition.

If the chemistry they teach in last two years of high school (called pre university here), which is quite high level, qualifies for entrance exams, Computer Science should too. No I am not telling this because it is a programmers forum. But CS taught in pre-uni (optional subject) is more essential and often more helpful than chemistry and half of physics taught to these grades. But chemistry is compulsory for some legacy reasons. There is no interest to change that.

Re: Indian IT consultancies struggle against technological obsolescence

#40

This is still very shallow thinking. Every company that views tech as a cost rather than a way to generate revenue will invest in these contracts/offshore centres, and that is the noose round their neck. In most cases, but not all, hiring consultants suggests you don't understand enough about your own business to manage it yourself ( insert image of senior executive trying to work out the Zoom so they can check their…

I had extremely good experiences with opening a subsidiary office in Sofia, Bulgaria (not outsourcing, but legit part of the company.) Code quality went way up compared to what was developed in the US/UK, somewhat less expensive (but not that much, like you said), and most importantly and perhaps also the most surprisingly, the attitude of the young kids working there is way more positive and well-adjusted that what…

Can confirm, eastern europeans are above average regarding technical skills, though sometimes lacking on the social side. If I had to outsource, I‘d go east. They’ve got some amazing talent. I would avoid southern europe and india. And yes, I have direct experience with all of those.
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