Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Four Quadrants of Conformism

paulgraham.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 882 posts

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#31

Post by stopachka »

Loved this essay. The phrase “aggressively conventional minded” is genius, and may contribute a lot towards the solution.

As someone coming from an ex-soviet state, I’ve felt personal alarm bells ring more and more, as I experience the kind of intolerance and double speak America is heading into. Both the left and the right my opinion are missing the key points on freedom (the left suppressing and labeling, the right militarizing).

Yet, as PG points out, the independent minded are good at figuring out solutions. No matter what, the fundamental ideas that America is built on is focused so heavily on freedom that I trust the aggressively independent to protect, and the passively independent minded to innovate.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#32

Post by peteretep »

notsureaboutpg wrote: post #18

Ah, conventional minded people are those who insist that those who break the rules are bad, worthless in society, and should be punished. Then Mr. Graham goes on to say that the rules of civilized, successful, wealthy societies are that everyone should be free to debate even the worst of ideas, and the people who prevent this or disagree with this are bad, never become entrepreneurs (a laughable thought), are not wor…

> How do intelligent people end up reducing the world into such obviously untrue caricatures?

Hot take: as a function of increasing age

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#33

Post by notsureaboutpg »

chippy wrote: post #24
thom wrote: post #10

Good grief man, if you can only detect new ideas when they erupt from the mouths of startup CEOs, and you can't credit things like social justice and equality as anything but conformist (despite having been denied millions if not billions of people), then you're not 'independent', you're just incredibly narrow minded.

The ideas of social justice and equality spring from the independent quadrant. These ideas have become the rules that conventional quadrant follow and expose. This doesn't seem to contradict itself.

Well what about if the rules of the conventional quadrant become "Anyone who says or implies 'Crush !' is bad and should never be listened to"?

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#34

Post by chippy »

andybak wrote: post #3

As always in discussions of "types of people" it's more nuanced than this. Someone can be both aggressively conformist over some issues (and towards some groups) and aggressively independent over others. In fact if you picture a stereotypical conspiracy-minded alt-right individual then the exhibit both behaviours at the same time about the same group. (individualist) "I won't do x because the government tells me I sh…

I think this was addressed in the post with the example of school conformists who "rebel" along with the rest of their group doing the same things, with the same clothes, language, fashion, music etc.

In your example, the aggressive alt-right "individualist" would be the equivalent as the high school rebel who is just acting a rebel and conforming to their adopted group.

Conformists are essential for any group cohesion. I imagine a key part of a conformist in any group is to define the out groups.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#35

Post by luckylion »

PaulHoule wrote: post #26
lincolnq wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you unpack this? The only social justice-related example in the piece was a positive one (antebellum abolitionism). It seems like you might be reading into the piece more than was intended.

Graham is in the bay area and he knows he'd get the smackdown from LGBT activists if he said what he meant, so he is using coded speech. The breathless tone that there is something wrong on college campuses these days (without being specific) is a dead giveaway.

> so he is using coded speech

Please give us the decoder, because "it's code for whatever I feel like it is" is really not helpful.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#37

Post by f0ff »

montebicyclelo wrote: post #7

> ...the latest wave of intolerance began in universities. It began in the mid 1980s, and by 2000 seemed to have died down, but it has recently flared up again with the arrival of social media. > the decline in the spirit of free inquiry within universities.. Are there some examples of what this might refer to?

Take Peterson for example.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#38

Post by notsureaboutpg »

stopachka wrote: post #31

Loved this essay. The phrase “aggressively conventional minded” is genius, and may contribute a lot towards the solution. As someone coming from an ex-soviet state, I’ve felt personal alarm bells ring more and more, as I experience the kind of intolerance and double speak America is heading into. Both the left and the right my opinion are missing the key points on freedom (the left suppressing and labeling, the right…

>No matter what, the fundamental ideas that America is built on is focused so heavily on freedom

Freedom as long as you aren't threateningly critical of America.

The journalist of the Syrian War who took an anti-American stance and was targetted by American drone strikes would prove otherwise: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-...

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#39

Post by Miner49er »

chippy wrote: post #24
thom wrote: post #10

Good grief man, if you can only detect new ideas when they erupt from the mouths of startup CEOs, and you can't credit things like social justice and equality as anything but conformist (despite having been denied millions if not billions of people), then you're not 'independent', you're just incredibly narrow minded.

The ideas of social justice and equality spring from the independent quadrant. These ideas have become the rules that conventional quadrant follow and expose. This doesn't seem to contradict itself.

Social justice and true equality aren't conformist ideas though. We live at a time when wealth inequality is around the highest since our country has kept track and you think equality is a mainstream conformist idea?

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#40

Post by stopachka »

notsureaboutpg wrote: post #38
stopachka wrote: post #31

Loved this essay. The phrase “aggressively conventional minded” is genius, and may contribute a lot towards the solution. As someone coming from an ex-soviet state, I’ve felt personal alarm bells ring more and more, as I experience the kind of intolerance and double speak America is heading into. Both the left and the right my opinion are missing the key points on freedom (the left suppressing and labeling, the right…

>No matter what, the fundamental ideas that America is built on is focused so heavily on freedom Freedom as long as you aren't threateningly critical of America. The journalist of the Syrian War who took an anti-American stance and was targetted by American drone strikes would prove otherwise: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-...

The fact that an article exists, and it’s possible for him to sue, is a right and luxury afforded to us by this American belief in freedom.
Post reply on HN