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Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

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Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#161

Post by baggy_trough »

bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #131
madamelic wrote: post #2

Mixed use zoning is just about the best case situation for everyone. - Less reliance on cars, which results in less parking, which results in less traffic... it becomes self-perpetuating. - Better walkability - Knowing your corner store clerk or at least having a rapport with them - Healthier citizens, due to them walking everywhere (Go to NYC and see how few overweight people you see... not many unless they're touri…

Here's a crazy idea: no zoning. Let people decide what they want to do.

What I wanted to do was move to a place that had rules which would keep the neighborhood the way I like.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#162

Post by cawlin »

juniper_strong wrote: post #145
egypturnash wrote: post #130

I currently live in New Orleans, which is very mixed-use if you're in the city proper. It's really, really nice. I bike everywhere. Groceries, bookstores, head shops, cafes, bars, hardware store (with a super nice housewares department on the second floor), plumbers, auto shops, restaurants, snoball stands, parks, schools[1], dentists, optometrists, lawyers, there's pretty much everything I need in a 20min cycling ra…

If you bike everywhere why are you going to the auto shop?

I'd guess for auto supplies. You can bike "everywhere" and still own a vehicle for visiting places outside a city proper.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#163

Post by dgellow »

cameldrv wrote: post #156
madamelic wrote: post #2

Mixed use zoning is just about the best case situation for everyone. - Less reliance on cars, which results in less parking, which results in less traffic... it becomes self-perpetuating. - Better walkability - Knowing your corner store clerk or at least having a rapport with them - Healthier citizens, due to them walking everywhere (Go to NYC and see how few overweight people you see... not many unless they're touri…

Generally, I like this a lot. The key is that for it to work, you must build taller, but it doesn't have to be all that tall. I've lived in several places that had great walkability, and they all had one thing in common: They were built before the invention of the automobile. The best for walkability was Berlin, which, in the inner part, is mostly 5-6 story buildings. Within two blocks there were numerous stores and…

I’m not sure about your argument of “you have to build up”. Lot of places in Europe have strict limits regarding how high a building can be and they do have lot of small stores around, Berlin, that you mentioned, is very strict on this. A few examples: Hamburg residential areas seem to have ~4-5 floors max. Groningen has neighborhoods where apartment building are limited to only 2 floors (So just two apartments). They both have enough density to have small businesses around.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding the US situation you’re comparing to, and people there just build flat, so even a few floors is already building up? That would be strange though...

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#164

Post by dhosek »

tropdrop wrote: post #110
dhosek wrote: post #36

This was once common in the inner ring suburbs of Chicago. There used to be a small grocery store in the middle of a residential block near where I lived and a bar in the middle of another residential block close to my elementary school. There are houses whose former mixed use (shop in the front, house in the back) are still obvious. Here's one surviving neighborhood grocery in Berwyn, IL: https://goo.gl/maps/NCd45gh…

The housewives aspect of it is a strange thing to focus on - this is a relic of a time when most people did not drive, i.e. this style of living was natural to everyone, housewife or no, prior to Eisenhower-era financial incentives to build highways everywhere[1], and especially in areas of "urban blight," which, of course, were also usually the densest parts of neighborhoods/cities since the poor did not have cars.…

Berwyn and Cicero weren't directly impacted by the Eisenhower (although Oak Park was—something that the local populace still resents which is evidenced by the fact that the exits for the Ike (much to my wife's confusion, I-290 goes by multiple names) exist only on the borders of the village and are the only left-side exits for the entirety of the Congress Expressway's (like I said...) run). More impactful was perhaps the replacement of streetcar lines with buses and the shortening of the Douglas Park "L" to end at 54th instead of its former terminus at Oak Park Avenue. Stickney, just south of Berwyn and Cicero, was still semi-rural into the 50s when my parents' house was built and, although it has had bus service from West Towns Bus Company (now Pace), it was never not a place where cars were essential (I suppose in its pre-incorporation days and first decade, one could have gotten by with a horse and wagon). This is not a Greenwich Village situation.

I mentioned housewives walking to the neighborhood store to do shopping because this was an aspect of the local culture that persisted into the 70s and early 80s. Most had their own little carts for hauling home their groceries (similar to these https://www.amazon.com/customerpicks/Explore-grocery-carts-f... it's interesting to see that these are still sold, although I've not seen one in use for 30 years or so).

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#165

Post by fellowniusmonk »

function_seven wrote: post #139
bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a crazy idea: no zoning. Let people decide what they want to do.

That is crazy. I do not want a concrete plant to open next to my house. Or a Yoko Ono Scream Therapy franchise :) But yeah, the insane detail that many cities have in their zoning plans is stifling. The link[7] monkeypizza included elsewhere in this thread is what I'd like to see as the norm [7] http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html

Eh, I hate the city myself but people love Houston. Seems like 0 zoning isn't really an appreciable problem.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#166

Post by dbcurtis »

moltar wrote: post #127
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is people want to call it "mixed zoning" but still have Karens on the central planning committee making stupid rules, e.g. they'll have "businesses" next to "residences" but a given plot will be explicitly designated as one or the other. What you really want is the small businesses which start off being operated out of the proprietor's residence. A hair salon in a converted living room, a restaurant servi…

Yup see “shop houses” [1] in Southeast Asia for how it should be done. Shop house is a flexible creature. It can be a business, but is also easily converted into living quarters, if necessarily, or a parking garage, or whatever you want. It’s just a flexible, convertible space. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shophouse

Interestingly, in the area of Iowa and Minnesota where I grew up, where a lot of the towns were founded just after the Civil War, the shops on main street were mostly brick storefront on the ground level, with residence above. Very few shop owners live in the apartment these days, for more than the last 50 years the apartments were rented out, usually quite cheaply.

I did have one friend that ran a shop and lived above -- it seemed great -- but he owned the building and had done a lot of modernizing of the apartment. It doesn't fit the suburban dream, though. No yard -- the green space for my friend was the county court house square across main street from his shop.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#167

Post by rwhitman »

Of course the daunting obstacle is changing the mindset of suburban planners and nimbys. The zoning ordinances that have dominated planning in the USA since the 50's ban this in large swaths of America..

New Urbanism made progress creating denser planning in the last 30 years, but focused too much on high density mixed use. Adding small shops to residential streets is definitely the one area that they've really failed on in my opinion. It's the reason older towns and cities still trounce the 'burbs on walkability and will for a long time.

But while we're at it we should also think about other human-scale improvements, like narrow streets. Worth a read for anyone interested in retrofitting the suburbs: https://www.andrewalexanderprice.com/blog20130131.php#.Xxptm...

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#168

Post by bezmenov »

dgellow wrote: post #163
cameldrv wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, I like this a lot. The key is that for it to work, you must build taller, but it doesn't have to be all that tall. I've lived in several places that had great walkability, and they all had one thing in common: They were built before the invention of the automobile. The best for walkability was Berlin, which, in the inner part, is mostly 5-6 story buildings. Within two blocks there were numerous stores and…

I’m not sure about your argument of “you have to build up”. Lot of places in Europe have strict limits regarding how high a building can be and they do have lot of small stores around, Berlin, that you mentioned, is very strict on this. A few examples: Hamburg residential areas seem to have ~4-5 floors max. Groningen has neighborhoods where apartment building are limited to only 2 floors (So just two apartments). The…

~5 floors is as high as you can go before needing an elevator.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#169

Post by JamesBarney »

nitwit005 wrote: post #49
Spooky23 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory sure. In reality, the financial system is oriented towards big capital. My aunt ran a coffee shop that was established by grandparents in 1939. It was in the lobby of a office building in he central business district of our little city. The building was bought by a Chinese investor. Like other similar stores, her rent went up 5x and she shuttered. I live in a mixed use urban neighborhood. 50% of he storefro…

Investors have proven willing to keep homes and apartments empty as well. The behavior seems bizarre to me, but it seems you have to set tax policies to discourage it.

I think this happens more often in places like San Francisco where the gains from investing in property is mostly appreciation and it's hard to get rid of a tenant. In this case it makes little sense to deal with the hassle of having a tenant who might live there for a very long time to potentially increase your returns by 2-3% per year.

Re: Put tiny businesses back into residential neighborhoods

#170

Post by JamesBarney »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #74
Spooky23 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory sure. In reality, the financial system is oriented towards big capital. My aunt ran a coffee shop that was established by grandparents in 1939. It was in the lobby of a office building in he central business district of our little city. The building was bought by a Chinese investor. Like other similar stores, her rent went up 5x and she shuttered. I live in a mixed use urban neighborhood. 50% of he storefro…

Pretty much. Modern mixed-use developments are basically born again shopping malls. We don't have the density for "real" mixed use, so it's just a development project like any other; I'm sure there are real, integrated, mixed-use projects, but the ones I see in small urban/suburban areas are detached from the surrounding area and often detached from public transport, basically to sell overpriced apartments to lifesty…

What is real mixed use vs fake mixed use?
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