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Perseverance Toward Life Goals Can Fend Off Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders

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Re: Perseverance Toward Life Goals Can Fend Off Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders

#41
post #7

But what are you sacrificing in return for your “perseverance”? Very few people tend to look at the mind as a system, and also seem to ignore that depression, anxiety, panic disorders, etc. happen for a reason. The reason why modern humanity have increased risk of these symptoms is because they know, given their perhaps wrongly learned models of the world or otherwise, that even when they achieve their so-called life…

> But what are you sacrificing in return for your “perseverance”?

Nothing that matters to you. If it mattered to you it would be a life goal.

> The reason why modern humanity have increased risk of these symptoms is because they know, given their perhaps wrongly learned models of the world or otherwise, that even when they achieve their so-called life goals, that they wouldn’t achieve philosophical nor psychological satisfaction that they seek.

You've added a ton of words which literally don't even mean anything in context. Let me whittle this down:

> The reason why modern humans have increased risk of these symptoms is they know that even when they achieve their life goals, that they wouldn't achieve satisfaction.

Okay, we found an actual claim.

In his essay, Yes, We Have Noticed the Skulls, Scott Alexander notes that any intellectual movement that has been around for a while has made some mistakes, and is probably aware of them, so if there's some obvious failure of a movement, the people who still believe in the movement probably have learned from that failure. Communists are aware of Stalin murdering people and are wary of totalitarianism. Christians are aware of Torquemada torturing people and are wary of religious persecution. There are of course crazy communists and Christians who think Stalin and Torquemada were great, but they're not by any means the majority. If you talk to a communist and your big argument is "but, Stalin!" you're just showing exactly how outdated your knowledge is.

This is no exception. If your big criticism of psychology is that achieving your goals can leave you feeling empty, well, let me assure you, psychologists are well aware of this, and have studied it at length. This is not the gotcha you think it is.

There are two kinds of goals, process goals and outcome goals. Yes, outcome goals are likely to leave people feeling empty once the desired outcome achieved, which is why some psychologists think it's a good idea to focus on process goals instead. When you talk about "achieving" things and not feeling satisfaction, you're only talking about outcome goals, when there's a whole other type of goal that the article you're criticizing is probably talking about.

Re: Perseverance Toward Life Goals Can Fend Off Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders

#42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you explained what are not missions, can you give examples for missions?

Sure, here are just a few. 1. Rearing children with the goal of making them read at 2 years old. Then with the goal of learning calculus at 10. Then others as they grow older. 2. Learning programming by writing a real system that actual people will use -- instead of code katas or reading programming books or attending a boot camp. 3. Marrying not only for love, but with the intention of building a business or farm to…

Alright. Because this personally applies for me, what about creating missions of past decisions made without missions? (This sounds naive, but I could use some insight.)

For ex. I did my undergrad in IT Security. I did an MSDA. I ended up in professional sales. I don't know what to do with all this. I've been good at tackling hard subjects my entire life, but how do you craft a mission from a hodgepodge of difficult and unrelated skillsets?

Re: Perseverance Toward Life Goals Can Fend Off Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders

#43

> People who showed more goal persistence and optimism... had greater reductions in depression ... Isn't a big part of depression is pessimism? I feel like this sentence is the same as saying "People who showed no signs of depression ... had greater reductions in depression"

I read it as people who are less depressed have it easier to become non depressed. which isn't saying much.

Re: Perseverance Toward Life Goals Can Fend Off Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders

#44
I couldn't find the actual paper with this press release, even when searching on the website itself (which ended up just returning blank pages to me for some reason). I found more info through another website[0]. At least this helps me, in principle, rule out the idea that they could have been mixing correlation and causation.

The one thing that surprises me is that they quickly go on to conclude that therapies should focus on what they studied. Quote: "Treatments for MDD, GAD, and PD should attempt to enhance perseverance and optimism."

A predictor isn't necessarily an actuator. I think that a few steps are skipped if a predictor is immediately used as a tool to correct an issue rather than to primarily track it. They would need to do a separate study to know IF one possible new treatment can come out of training in "goal persistence".

There are other ways to think about the results. For example, some of the criteria to diagnose a Major Depressive Disorder could be refined thanks to this kind of research. If a sort of "goal" or "persistence" assessment is tracked, the intensity of the disorder might be better perceived, which in turn could mean that therapists and psychiatrists could work towards more fitting treatment amongst what is already researched and known.

In any case, as someone with a fairly intense mix of two of the disorders in this study, I am always happy to see some research come out (especially when n >> 3 undergrads who were passing by).

[0] https://doi.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fabn0000428

Re: Perseverance Toward Life Goals Can Fend Off Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders

#46

Yes to this. I often counsel my younger friends to have a "mission". Then once that is completed, to find another one. In fact, one can have multiple missions running at the same time. It's rarely said that marriage, kids, job, degree, a house, car, and most physical things are not missions. And in fact, most of these things -- unless accompanied by a "why am i doing this" and attendant missions/goals do not lead to…

Maybe this is a bit semantic, because in general I agree with you, but:

> It's rarely said that marriage, kids, job, degree, a house, car, and most physical things are not missions.

No, they are missions. Anyone without them who wants them views each of these as a major milestone in their life. However, like you said, you need to find another mission after completing these.

These things are kind of a like a "life plan starter pack", to give you a framework for what many people view as a set of good missions for your life. But many unhappy people who have these things have failed to continue to pursue missions after attaining them. I think this is why it's easy (but wrong) to say that they "aren't missions".

Re: Perseverance Toward Life Goals Can Fend Off Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders

#47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, here are just a few. 1. Rearing children with the goal of making them read at 2 years old. Then with the goal of learning calculus at 10. Then others as they grow older. 2. Learning programming by writing a real system that actual people will use -- instead of code katas or reading programming books or attending a boot camp. 3. Marrying not only for love, but with the intention of building a business or farm to…

Alright. Because this personally applies for me, what about creating missions of past decisions made without missions? (This sounds naive, but I could use some insight.) For ex. I did my undergrad in IT Security. I did an MSDA. I ended up in professional sales. I don't know what to do with all this. I've been good at tackling hard subjects my entire life, but how do you craft a mission from a hodgepodge of difficult…

Research -> Information -> Strategy.

No one can build your strategy for you-- you'll want one suited for you, and no one knows you better than yourself. Although I am sure certain folks can help: Life Coaches, Counselors, Psychologists, etc.

Find resources on: - Skills that BOTH interest you, and are economically in demand - Geographical areas where those skills have a competitive advantage and are in demand

i.e. bureau of labor statistics

[1] Visualize it: Wages and projected openings by occupation https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2019/article/wages-and-ope...

[2] Fastest growing occupations: 20 occupations with the highest percent change of employment between 2018-28. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/fastest-growing.htm

[3] You can find entire libraries of skills at sites like Lynda.com and Udemy.com

I am an web app developer. No tech degree.

How? Built my skills. And strategically: I am creative, interested in business & entrepreneurship, interested in freedom, technology, and building things. And, I want to make good income so I can support a community where I help people grow.

Looking at those desires... it fits well with a Web App Developer career.

Likewise, you need to determine:

A. What do you want ("Goal". Not having a goal is like having a map without a destination: Going nowhere)

B. What you're willing to get what you want ("How badly do you _want_ to reach your goal? Do you really _want_ it? Again-- how badly? Are you willing to take 6 months off from work to grow your own skillset, full time, via project-based work, in order to leapfrog yourself into a new career?)

Just some ideas. It's not tough. Just ask a search engine the right questions. And know yourself.

Go through trials, tribulations, challenges-- One doesn't get to know their self by living an easy, meandering life. We get to know our self and what we're capable of by going through significant challenges-- By testing ourselves.

Re: Perseverance Toward Life Goals Can Fend Off Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders

#49
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you explained what are not missions, can you give examples for missions?

Sure, here are just a few. 1. Rearing children with the goal of making them read at 2 years old. Then with the goal of learning calculus at 10. Then others as they grow older. 2. Learning programming by writing a real system that actual people will use -- instead of code katas or reading programming books or attending a boot camp. 3. Marrying not only for love, but with the intention of building a business or farm to…

> Rearing children with the goal of making them read at 2 years old. Then with the goal of learning calculus at 10.

Hol up. A little off topic, but a better goal is to be a supportive and loving parent. Don't have kids with a goal to have them do X by Y. Children are there own person. Guide them, direct them, support them, teach them, but their goals should be their own.

Re: Perseverance Toward Life Goals Can Fend Off Depression, Anxiety, Panic Disorders

#50
post #4

Or the act of fending off depression, anxiety, and panic disorders can positively influence perseverance toward life goals. That’s a just as valid conclusion from the data.

Yeah, absolutely. > participants were asked to rate their goal persistence (e.g., “When I encounter problems, I don’t give up until I solve them”), self-mastery (e.g., “I can do just anything I really set my mind to”) and positive reappraisal (e.g., “I can find something positive, even in the worst situations”). Diagnoses for major depressive, anxiety and panic disorders were also collected at each interval. > People…

It could be just both correlate independently with a third, unknown variable that represents some unknown or unaccounted psychological property of mind.
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