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My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

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Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#161
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this does not mesh well with their mission. They are the Internet Archive , the archive of freely (in the past) available stuff that can't be found anywhere else, in most cases. This is much more fragile than old books which likely exists in thousands of copies anyway. I do not admire their stance, and am unhappy that they are recklessly jeopardizing their unique thing to make a case where they have a very bi…

I understand you, and vehemently disagree. There is a real and serious risk of having ALL published material eventually fall under "licensed use" instead of ownership. We're rapidly tipping towards a society where you pay rent to license everything, and own nothing. In the short term, I find this model abusive. In the long I think it guarantees we will have a competitive disadvantage against countries that don't enfo…

You'll own the things you create.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#162
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's an unfair take on the law. If you create something you decide what happens with it. That seems reasonable to me. Why are the rest of us entitled to your creation?

There's a good modern day example we could look at. Reggae music. Jamaica lacks (or did) copyright laws. Because of this, music was reused over and over again. From the 1950's onwards, kids, poor people, anyone with technical knowhow could build a soundsystem, cobbled together from spare parts, get some records and play music. Eventually, many of those people went on to form recording studios and such. Because there…

> Under the north american system, the copyright owner would have made millions of dollars, and entire genres of music would.never have been created in their current form.

Not the most convincing conjecture when the "loser" in your comparison is one of the biggest music genre-creating powerhouses in the world and its music is rife with sampling, and the "winner" in your comparison is mainly known for a single genre of music.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#163
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IA will lose because the precedent set by winning would mean that all online digital sales can just be distributed. Itd evaporate a trillion dollar market overnight. I disagree with book publishers and general copyright law, but judges can understand the difference between physical books and digital ones. Physical books cannot be outright copied atom for atom in 5 milliseconds and distributed to millions in hours. Th…

The First Sale doctrine SHOULD apply, As someone else replied in a sibling comment. A digital sale should be just that, a perpetual license that can be transferred, inherited, etc.

I don't think this is the kind of result anyone wants. Even if you do get a ruling that ignores license agreements and says first sale applies to infinetely copiable and distributable content - it'll give every monetary incentive from the copyright overlords to bankroll Congress into further archaic laws. There's every good argument to be made that digital is not the same as physical, and thatll result in more terrible laws.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#164
post #75
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Library cards are limited to city residents. For example, think of a city with 1M residents. That puts a cap on the license cost. So you're saying that the amount libraries pay for a book is proportional to the number of residents in that city?

He said "license cost." And, yes, I'm pretty sure how much libraries pay for digital licenses is at least partly based on the size of the population that they're serving. I doubt my small town library pays the same for licenses as the Boston Public Library does.

Don't they just pay a certain amount per "digital licence"/how many copies they can lend? For instance, my library has an X amount of "copies" of ebooks it can lend, I actually never use it because anything that interests me is always "out of stock" and you have to reserve the next available slot.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in their best interest to settle in a capitulating way that will hurt them but not kill them. This might have to include a public apology that admits they're in the wrong because publishers can be petty about this type of thing. It doesn't seem like they're willing to do that, and while I agree with their viewpoint and the troubling future with licensing... it may be the hill they die on and I'm not sure it's wo…

I'm astonished and dismayed by all the comments calling for capitulation. It's very clear that the publishers in this case are bullies, plain and simple. You don't kneel to bullies if you want them to stop, you fight back. Not to do so leads to tyranny and feudalism, where the whims of the large become the law.

You don't kneel to bullies if you want them to stop, you fight back

If you get a speeding ticket on a road where you believe the speed limit is unreasonably low, do you "fight" with the cop at the side of the road, or with the transportation department in a meeting room at city hall?

They're doing the former, which just wastes everybody's time and money.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a good modern day example we could look at. Reggae music. Jamaica lacks (or did) copyright laws. Because of this, music was reused over and over again. From the 1950's onwards, kids, poor people, anyone with technical knowhow could build a soundsystem, cobbled together from spare parts, get some records and play music. Eventually, many of those people went on to form recording studios and such. Because there…

> Under the north american system, the copyright owner would have made millions of dollars, and entire genres of music would.never have been created in their current form. Not the most convincing conjecture when the "loser" in your comparison is one of the biggest music genre-creating powerhouses in the world and its music is rife with sampling, and the "winner" in your comparison is mainly known for a single genre o…

many of those sampling heavy American music styles (hip-hop, much electronic music) were very directly and strongly influenced by Jamaican dub which grew out of reggae.

I think the argument is reasonable that we don't get any of it, at least not in the forms we have now, without Jamaican music. DJ Kool Herc was Jamaican.

on the other hand, it is definitely true that the American music industry with its strict copyright has not exactly been stagnant. but it is different.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#168
post #50

> With this suit, the publishers are saying that in the digital world, we cannot buy books anymore, we can only license and on their terms; we can only preserve in ways for which they have granted explicit permission, and for only as long as they grant permission; and we cannot lend what we have paid for because we do not own it. This is not a rule of law, this is the rule by license. This does not make sense. If tha…

> If that's the main argument of IA, they'll have a tough time in court.

As a non-profit library the plaintiffs effectively have to show that the Internet Archive acted in bad faith[1] in order to receive statutory damages. § 504 (c)(2) says,

> The court shall remit statutory damages in any case where an infringer believed and had reasonable grounds for believing that his or her use of the copyrighted work was a fair use under section 107, if the infringer was: (i) an employee or agent of a nonprofit educational institution, library, or archives acting within the scope of his or her employment who, or such institution, library, or archives itself, which infringed by reproducing the work in copies or phonorecords

Without full statutory damages I doubt IA would have to pay much of anything--at least, not so much that they become insolvent, unless the judge is mean-spirited--as it's unlikely the plaintiffs could show even a hint of significant economic loss. In fact, the inability to show economic loss in this case is likely to be critical to IA's Fair Use argument. In any event, I suspect it's this mandatory remittitur clause that gave the IA the courage to do what they did.

I agree the IA's interpretation of the law is unlikely to succeed given modern courts' sentiments regarding copyright. But is their legal argument so bad as to constitute bad faith? During a global pandemic? Where armies of educators will come out in defense of IA for the social benefit they provided given the exigent circumstances--a near complete, if not wholly complete, inability to gainfully access not only hard copies but electronic copies of these resources as well?

In light of the situation, it might even be possible that a trial court either approves of IA's theory or remits almost all damages, and the appellate courts refuse review, electing not to fall into the IA's or the publishing industry's trap of leveraging the pandemic to shape copyright law. In fact, rejecting IA's defense but using remittitur to reduce damages to a token amount is probably what a risk-averse trial judge might do, hoping that both IA and the publishers will accept a detente.

[1] I'm being a little lazy. I don't know of any precedent that equivocates the statute's language to the term of art, bad faith. But it seems close enough for loose talk.

EDIT: I forgot the wrinkle in that remittitur clause that I belatedly caught the first time I considered it a few weeks ago: it specifically refers to reproduction, not distribution or infringement generally. I dunno what the caselaw looks like, but that's an amateur oversight on my part, which I've apparently made twice. I guess I'm just eager to defend the IA.

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad we live in a society where profit is the first and foremost consideration for anything. Preserving history, human creativity, the progress of society, the betterment of future generations all comes second to profit. How many things will get or have been lost to time or just lost in general because they didn't make or cut into profit? The internet archive may have its faults, but its value to humanity…

I don’t think it’s a moral or cultural failure but a political one. A high level politician is successful by being able to convince large donors that they should govern, not by being able to convince the populace that they’re good an analyzing policy and laws to steer them to a better place. That, I believe, is the root of the current imbalance in copyright and patent law.

I think in a way there is a cultural failing. This feels like a problem some countries don't have. It's not uniquely US, but how big of a problem are large donors in the Netherlands, New Zealand, or Denmark?

Re: My thoughts in response to the lawsuit against the Internet Archive

#170
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad we live in a society where profit is the first and foremost consideration for anything. Preserving history, human creativity, the progress of society, the betterment of future generations all comes second to profit. How many things will get or have been lost to time or just lost in general because they didn't make or cut into profit? The internet archive may have its faults, but its value to humanity…

I think that's an unfair take on the law. If you create something you decide what happens with it. That seems reasonable to me. Why are the rest of us entitled to your creation?

I think the root issue is the creator didn't entirely understand what they were giving away. Harper Collins and all publishers don't create content. They are a delivery platform. Unfortunately to use their delivery platform I have to give them exclusive rights to the content (it's even worse than face book and reddit where they merely claim right to use the content).

In return they'll give you On top of that we're also talking about books where the author is dead.

Why is anyone entitled to my creation isn't a valid question to ask of book publishers. They didn't create a thing.

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