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Amazon met with startups about investing, then launched competing products

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Re: Amazon met with startups about investing, then launched competing products

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then what about other commenters saying that this is exactly what their sectors of the company do? Do you think it's impossible that a massive company like Amazon that controls an ungodly amount of the Internet would break those rules? Especially when the government of their home country hasn't pursued an antitrust case in God knows how long

Amazon does not trawl customer data. However, metrics like AMI popularity is Amazon's data... and that definitely informs first-class AWS product development. Once the company identifies a business opportunity, different teams often investigate "build" and "buy" options simultaneously. Same goes for retail - Amazon works backwards from high-margin categories to identify opportunities, then pursues investment in exist…

I don't think the difference is all that large. Legally, yes. But ethically they are pretty close. After all, any product launched like that will be at the expense of those already operating in that niche including Amazon's platform users.

Re: Amazon met with startups about investing, then launched competing products

#192
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the measures being implemented to ensure that no employee can look into customer's data?

I used to work for AWS and had to deep dive into IAM to build a feature. Basically Everytime you touch AWS your session is tagged with your credentials and has a unique ID. So everything downstream you touch has your session ID associated with it. Now say somebody from Redshift wants to access the customer's data. They will then need to access to the encryption key in KMS. The trail will be there since KMS lives in t…

This is about as bad a revelation as the original one. So the encryption key is fair game without explicit customer approval?

Re: Amazon met with startups about investing, then launched competing products

#193

Amazon announced a copycat of us pretty quickly after we went through YC. I suspect it’s not some sinister top-down thing (unless they are actually reading all YC company descriptions). Most likely, the copycats are ambitious, unoriginal PMs pitching some budget. We facilitate subscriptions using a smart scale, and it works way better than a Dash button (Bottomless.com, YC W19). I’m actually surprised they haven’t la…

Neat idea. I had the same thoughts a while back around a toilet paper tower/holder ("never run out of TP again"). It's a fun concept.

Thanks! Yeah, we thought about doing TP first with a smart roll holder. Coffee is a better e-commerce product. We will do TP eventually!

Re: Amazon met with startups about investing, then launched competing products

#194
I'm a serial tech startup founder who has seen all sides of this up close. I've had startups I founded or co-founded IPO, be acquired by a Top 10 valley tech giant, acquire smaller startups, and (of course) go bust. I've self-funded, VC funded, angel funded and had corporate investors. In the acquisition, I ended up working for the Top 10 valley tech company for over a decade reporting directly to a key C-Suite exec and was deeply involved in company strategy, multi-billion dollar M&A, partnerships and investments.

In all that time I never saw any hint of anything even remotely unethical involving investments or M&A at my acquirer/employer. The company always played strictly by the rules, sometimes to an almost excessive degree (avoiding even the possible appearance of impropriety). This was both innately cultural, constantly preached from the BOD to CEO on down, as well as tactical since the reputational cost of negative perception was simply considered too high. Word gets around the valley fast. The invisible cost of the potential partner or startup that chooses to pass on meeting with us due to reputation could be very high.

That said, we would negotiate hard and do our due diligence, gathering public information in every legit way possible as we evaluated potential markets, product areas, acquisitions, partnerships and investments. Tons of startups were always contacting us to meet regarding investment, licensing, partnership, etc. So many that we'd actually meet with far less than 1 in 10, and even we'd usually just send a junior staffer to the mtg for a "first pass".

Those first mtgs were almost always set up as NNPI (No Non-Public Info). We'd actually have the startup sign a doc in advance stating that they wouldn't share anything with us that wasn't already public info. This was then re-iterated at the beginning of the mtg. Afterward the junior staffer would then circulate a brief memo on the mtg outlining if there were any areas of interest and recommending whether there should be any follow-up with actual business unit or tech people with domain expertise. Most such mtgs had no follow-up. In the cases where there was follow-up, before mtg again we'd internally specify what our possible interests were (acquisition, investment, partnership, etc) and if acquisition or investment we'd have at least a first-pass thesis on what our interest was, usually at the level of "interesting tech", "good talent", "cool product - might slot into XYZ product line."

Back when I was a fledgling startup founder on the other side of all this, it was sort of mysterious and I remember my first mtgs with Big Cos (including Google, Apple, Intel, Microsoft, etc). It was all very exciting until I realized that most of these 'first sniff' mtgs are with junior people and never go anywhere.

Even if my acquirer/employer was unique in being highly ethical, the reality is that any startup founder who isn't intensely aware of the risk of Big Co becoming a competitor is incredibly naive. If senior Big Co execs are taking time to meet with you (vs junior Big Co staffers), it's because they are interested in something. As a founder, your job is to figure out what why they are interested. Sometimes they are just making small investments to foster an ecosystem their primary business relies on. Or they might be interested in acqui-hiring your startup. Or they might be looking at moving into the emerging market you're in and doing a Build vs Buy analysis or even considering a roll-up of smaller firms. Or they might be looking at buying one of your competitors and doing market due diligence. As a Big Co exec, I'd usually just tell a startup founder point-blank what my interest was, as it tends to save everyone time.

Often the startup founders I'd talk to as a BigCo exec were actually too guarded, to the extent they'd hesitate to even informally have a 'get acquainted' drink at a conference or trade show. It's good to be cautious but at the same time, many of my most lucrative exits and deals began with such meetings. As a founder, I also often learned invaluable info from Big Co people at such informal mtgs. After all, Big Co folks tend to hear all the industry scuttle-butt and they actually subscribe to ALL those $10k market data reports us startup guys could never afford.

Bottom line: when engaging with Big Cos, ask good questions, rationally evaluate the benefits vs risks, plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Re: Amazon met with startups about investing, then launched competing products

#195
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should listen to Michael Jordans hall of speech to see how pretty he was. He is considered the greatest basketball player in the world and he spend the whole speech belittling people.

In the docuseries he himself produced, MJ comes off as an absolute bully most of the time. It ruined a lot of the mythos for me.

I remember as a kid there was a child's book about basketball players and it mentioned that MJ was an aggressive, confrontational player who trash talked the other team. It shaped a conception of him as a champion who is fiercely competitive to the point of pettiness (not unlike Bill Gates, funnily enough), not a champion who is known for noble sportsmanship.

Re: Amazon met with startups about investing, then launched competing products

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is AWS a monopoly?

Isn't the important factor whether it's trying to become one? Windows and IE were never the only possible options.

A de facto monopoly doesn't mean that other options don't exist. Microsoft had a monopoly on the PC operating system market, despite other options existing.

Re: Amazon met with startups about investing, then launched competing products

#197
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not super familiar with antitrust laws, but it feels like they might apply here.

It's not just anti-trust, it's also trade secret laws. A customer of AWS has a reasonable expectation that the information it keeps on AWS's VMs are confidential.

Is that comparable to the owner of a mall watching who goes in and out of which shops to decide what stores to add to the mall?

Re: Amazon met with startups about investing, then launched competing products

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just ... wow. This is an egregious abuse of monopoly power and is exactly the kind of thing that antitrust laws are supposed to address. I was certainly naive when I heard about other big retailers who would refuse to allow any subcontractors to use AWS. "Surely Amazon has a Chinese wall" to prevent that kind of data sharing, I thought. Never underestimate the lack of morals in business is the right answer I guess.

> "Surely Amazon has a Chinese wall" to prevent that kind of data sharing, I thought. Never underestimate the lack of morals in business is the right answer I guess. It’s remarkable to me how many competent programmers with years or decades experience in this industry don’t understand —- If you’re using AWS, Amazon has access to ALL of the data you put on AWS. Not that they 'can' or 'want to', given the current state…

I'm not talking about not having any access in the technical sense. I'm talking about a "Chinese wall" whereby people who work for AWS supporting customers should absolutely not be able to inform any of the teams that build new Amazon services. These types of Chinese walls exist in many different industries, perhaps most famously finance, and when these walls have been "breached" in the past it has resulted in huge scandals.

Re: Amazon met with startups about investing, then launched competing products

#199

"An Amazon spokesman said the company doesn’t use confidential information that companies share with it to build competing products" Maybe...but in the past, AWS proactively looked at traction of products hosted on its platform, built competing products, and then scraped & targeted customer list of those hosted products. In fact, I was on a team in AWS that did exactly that. Why wouldn't their investing arm do the sa…

This is likely disingenuous. Large corporations like Amazon systematically refuse to sign NDAs with small players, hence none of the info is “confidential”. The rationale is that large companies might have people working on the idea already and they meet so many people/companies it would be restrictive for them to agree to any confidentiality.

It is a reasonable expectation that your data is kept confidential. If my hosting provider were to so much as look at my data without my explicit permission I'd sue.
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