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Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this?

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Re: Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this?

#571

Post by bumby »

rmrfstar wrote: post #563
bumby wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you use a counterfactual in which employees meaningfully participate in corporate governance, then you are incorrect. Can you elaborate on this point? Do you mean that FAANG employees do or do not have a seat at the table?

Even shareholders have a historically unusual inability to participate in corporate governance at Facebook. The closest comparison I have found is the oil trusts from the 19th century. But that's not a good comparison, because they were trusts , not corporations . I seriously can't believe Delaware allows Facebook's voting structure. Corporate law has evolved in a really strange direction over the past few decades.

Interesting, I don't know much about FB governance. I would venture to say it's probably (and unfortunately) becoming the norm rather than the exception that employees have little input into governance. This is another area where I think unions have benefit.

My point about being a tech "underclass" was more about avoiding conflating FAANG employees with those who have little opportunity or options. FAANG employees generally have more portable skills than, say, an uneducated immigrant employee and I don't know that I agree they could both be "exploited" in the same way. While it may be rooted in valid points, it's a bit cringey to use the same language to describe both.

Re: Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this?

#572

Post by BTCOG »

JSavageOne wrote: post #217
jasode wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So at least what I did is stop trying to put so much of an expectation on my job to fulfill me. I took responsibility to find and do things at and especially outside of my day job that did fulfill me. I'm not debating you but I just want to point out that your advice depends on the personality. It may even work for most workers but for some us, we cannot mentally "compartmentalize" the day job as the isolated 9-to-5…

With all due respect, the fact that you haven't found that "dream job" yet kind of proves the commenter's point. I'd love to work a "dream job" myself, it just doesn't exist. The whole purpose of a job is to make a company money, and money just never really motivated me other than in the freedom it buys me to not have to sell my time. Everything I enjoy doesn't make money, and if I wanted to "monetize" any of my hobb…

I agree with that to a point, but I think it's more like a job employed at someone else's company and making them money is never going to be a dream job. I do think there's hope in creating your own dream job via entrepreneurship and paving your own way, working for yourself. It can be a job that you control the schedule and all that you do. Everything you say I still 100% agree with and have also never found a dream job out of what are considered great positions. I think it's out there if you take and make your own music, start your own company, whatever is that you like/want to do on your own terms and if that becomes a successful venture. Self made.

Re: Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this?

#573

Post by thewanisdown »

throwawaybbqed wrote: post #336
CGamesPlay wrote: post #7

It's possible that your or your team's productivity is actually bad, and in general at the company you are expected to do more, but the team you are on is a puddle of low productivity within the overall org. How would you know if this is the case? There are a few signs. What degree of tenure do other people on the team have? If old-timers aren't on the team, or worse, if they leave the team for others within the comp…

These are very good points. I'm curious what the process is from the perspective of the manager. I'm new at the management side of things and was always a top performer as an IC (so didn't get a chance to learn how its down on the flip side). My biggest challenge is figuring out how to give negative feedback (and not destroy a weak player's morale). If someone is having not performing well, I act as a cheerleader and…

Look at Crucial Conversations. Don't take it as gospel, but it's a good starting point.

Stick to facts. Clearly state your expectation, and show how they are not meeting that expectation. Then place the ball firmly in their court. The goal is not fixing the issue for them, but getting them to take responsibility for fixing it themselves.

Refrain from creating a "shit sandwich" by putting the critique in the middle of praise. That makes the conversation ineffective. These conversations are never fun, but they are important to have, and you eventually get used to it.

Re: Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this?

#574

Post by VRay »

foepys wrote: post #224
sneak wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example in Sweden and most of Europe, most devs only make 2x-3x of what the toilet cleaner makes. Most devs in Europe are massively underpaid, and should work on the internet instead of some local underpaid wage-slave job. There is a shortage of skilled programmers in the world. There’s no reason to remain underpaid other than really, really wanting to work a very specific set of local timezone hours.

Well, I don't actually mind being "underpaid" when I can get home every day at 4pm, have 30 vacation days, ~20 months of sick leave, pay 400€ for my apartment, and have fun at work. And while I might be underpaid compared to SV, I'm still in the top 10% income-wise.

Even getting home at 4 PM every day, you only end up with 2-3 hours to do whatever you want per day, vs 12+ if you aren't going to work.

You should work a year in Silicon Valley and save every penny, then go spend 3-4 years back in your home country IMO. Just imagine what you could do with all that time, completely yours. The best hours of the day would be all yours again.

I took a couple of years off full-time work, and it was indescribably great. It took a few weeks to unwind and get out of "rat race" mode mentally, but after that.. I finally understood the cliche of "living more" because I would do more interesting stuff in a day than my friends and family would in a week. I had to force myself not to talk to anyone more than once a month, since I just sounded like a jerk to them, and they never had anything new to say any sooner than that.

I honestly felt like I lived more in that two year stretch than I did in my whole life up to that point beforehand.

I didn't manage to achieve enough of a stable financial equilibrium, so I'm back in the rat race now. My current job is awesome, I love it. I couldn't ask for a better job. But compared to that time to myself, I honestly feel like I'm dead. Wake up -> Work -> Chores -> TV/Games -> Sleep -> Repeat. Weekends are almost entirely devoted to resting and catching up on chores I couldn't take care of during the week. Days turn into weeks turn into months turn into years, everything just slips by.

Fortunately, I know I can come back to life again once I get enough money saved, so I'll keep at it.

Re: Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this?

#575

Post by bumby »

SeanBoocock wrote: post #555
Kapura wrote: post #306

>If the market value of such incompetence if FAANG salary, how can I do good work and get paid preportionally? You're going to have to learn that, as a laborer at a firm, the quality of work you do is, at best, loosely correlated to your monetary compensation. Sometimes you can do good work, sometimes you can do bad work, but how much you're paid is going to depend greatly on a number of surrounding factors. So, acce…

As a fellow game developer I really identify with this. I found a job that I am passionate about, even though it came at a significant tradeoff in terms of total compensation compared to FAANG. I would rather optimize for personal fulfillment and building something worthwhile, even if it comes at the expense of money.

Please don't take this as a disparaging comment because it's not meant to be, but...how to you define "worthwhile"? I had to read the OP's comment twice because it wasn't immediately apparent to me that coding in the gaming industry met my intuitive definition of a "worthwhile" endeavor.

FWIW, I think it's awesome you found something that meets your personal goal, I'm just curious how you arrived at that definition of what constitutes "worthwhile".

Re: Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this?

#576

Post by logicslave »

vanusa wrote: post #558
logicslave wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isnt true. Top performers on top products always have larger compensation. Its not discussed openly, but guaranteed they are receiving bonuses in the seven figures. If you think this isnt happening, you are naive or havent been on an inner circle at a large corporation. Whoever told you theres no bonuses at Amazon is not a top employee

Whoever told you there's no bonuses at Amazon is not a top employee. So that's how Amazon works - people can't even get a straight answer from management as to the existence of a bonus structure (let alone how it works)? They need to whisper it to each other offer coffee, or... go on Hacker News to find out what the actual deal is?

I mean just think about it. You write some critical piece of Amazon S3, generates massive value for the company. Amazon knows they cant lose you, how are they not paying you a ton of money? Individual employees can get into situations where they have massive bargaining power over large corporations. Your average or even regular top performer is not getting this, but people definitely are.

The bonus structure works like this.

1.) You provide massive value, maybe move the needle on the bottom line

2.) Someone way high up who probably doesnt even know you wants to know whos responsible.

3.) He tells HR, give that guy an extra million and let me meet him

Re: Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this?

#578

Post by khazhoux »

minimuffins wrote: post #562
khazhoux wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they're happy with his work output, fine. He fulfilled his end of the bargain. Totally deranged protestant work ethic run amok to think otherwise. By this reasoning... Manager : Our users are asking for this feature, how long will it take us to ship it? Developer : I can do it in six weeks. Manager : Ok, I'll let them know. (Six weeks later) Manager : I just found out that this was actually super simple for you…

I guess I'm supposed to sympathize with the manager in this hypothetical (which is different from the OP's situation anyway). But I don't!

How about the people who were waiting for the work to be done? Users and customers.

Re: Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this?

#579

Post by consz »

vanusa wrote: post #558
logicslave wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isnt true. Top performers on top products always have larger compensation. Its not discussed openly, but guaranteed they are receiving bonuses in the seven figures. If you think this isnt happening, you are naive or havent been on an inner circle at a large corporation. Whoever told you theres no bonuses at Amazon is not a top employee

Whoever told you there's no bonuses at Amazon is not a top employee. So that's how Amazon works - people can't even get a straight answer from management as to the existence of a bonus structure (let alone how it works)? They need to whisper it to each other offer coffee, or... go on Hacker News to find out what the actual deal is?

Sometimes not even management has the whole picture knows. I know someone who was a former employee (top performer) at FB. He would have his end of year (or half year? Not sure what the cycles were) with his boss, receive his bonus and salary increase. Then his boss's boss would pull him aside and give him another bonus, that his own boss was completely unaware of.

Re: Ask HN: Is all of FAANG like this?

#580

Post by bumby »

neutronicus wrote: post #424
dnautics wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the fallacy of modern tech-based capitalism and I hate it I hate to break it to you but no capitalism (and for that matter no non-capitalism) has ever been structured in a way that would satisfy you. For labor to be compensated for its "true worth" there needs to be a way to accurately judge what the "true worth" of the labor is, and honestly, the person to whom it matters the most is the laborer. This suff…

I do think "do what you love" and its cousin "shoot for the stars" get a lot of people in trouble. Personally, "doing" in all its myriad forms isn't something I'm really capable of "loving." Similarly, "dreams" are more of a crushing anxiety-burden than a source of joy. I think about this a lot because my younger sister, whose personality was similar to mine, but with more conscientiousness thrown in, took her own li…

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. I'm trying to make the connection to what happened and your comment:

>I do think "do what you love" and its cousin "shoot for the stars" get a lot of people in trouble.

Are you implying your sister was doing what she loved and it got her in trouble? Because the opposite comes to mind when I read stories like this, that perhaps people feel driven to follow the path they feel they are "supposed" to and are worse off for it.

I'm genuinely curious about your perspective but I hope it goes without saying that you don't need to respond if it's too painful.

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