Live data from Hacker News

Apple releases study defending App Store's 30% cut ahead of testimony

cnbc.com

21–30 of 30 posts

Re: Apple releases study defending App Store's 30% cut ahead of testimony

#21
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your company had decided it wasn't worth the extra effort to port to Google, that extra 20% might potentially cover the cost of the extra employees and overhead, or at least lessen the sting.

But most relevantly, it doesn't impact the decision of whether to port to iOS at all. If iOS was profitable before it still is, if it wasn't it still isn't. You can't use the Play Store instead of the App Store because the customer sets are completely disjoint.

> if it wasn't it still isn't

[citation needed]

A 10% change is not a 10% increase in profits, it's a 10% increase in margins. I could be going from 20% to 30%. I'd be making 50% more by porting my code to iOS than we previously forecast. Which also means I might invest more resources in doing it well which will also increase my profits. Because there is less risk involved with starting the project.

When you're trying to get a company to change directions, you need one really great reason or a lot of pretty good reasons. Sometimes one more reason is all you need.

Re: Apple releases study defending App Store's 30% cut ahead of testimony

#22
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But most relevantly, it doesn't impact the decision of whether to port to iOS at all. If iOS was profitable before it still is, if it wasn't it still isn't. You can't use the Play Store instead of the App Store because the customer sets are completely disjoint.

> if it wasn't it still isn't [citation needed] A 10% change is not a 10% increase in profits, it's a 10% increase in margins. I could be going from 20% to 30%. I'd be making 50% more by porting my code to iOS than we previously forecast. Which also means I might invest more resources in doing it well which will also increase my profits. Because there is less risk involved with starting the project. When you're tryin…

You don't get any increase in margins for porting to iOS if the percentage changes for the Play Store because you can't sell to iOS customers via the Play Store.

Re: Apple releases study defending App Store's 30% cut ahead of testimony

#23

The "everyone does it too" argument quickly breaks down if there's no alternative for you platform. On Android, you can easily sideload others stores, on PC you can use Epic Store or one of many others, but iOS has no other options.

How about Xbox or PlayStation? Those have both virtual as well as physical app stores in the form of game disks. There’s no way to avoid the lic fees in these platforms either.

Re: Apple releases study defending App Store's 30% cut ahead of testimony

#24
One can have a range of perspectives on this.

30% of nothing is nothing. Seriously, for a large number of developers the App Store is a big pile of nothingness.

Apple accelerated a race to the unprofitable bottom rather than to create a bottom that could actually deliver a financial return for developers. I mean, they could have established a $1 minimum price for apps, rather than $0. They could have created minimum business models that would deliver benefits to both developers and users. They chose to got to zero because a bunch of developers killing themselves to fill the app store with apps is good for Apple and users and developers are a dime a dozen (or at least that's the level of importance Apple seems to assign to them).

App discovery has sucked for years, which means that having an app found and noticed requires either luck, a tremendous amount of external marketing, a very large pile of cash or all of the above.

We've had apps on the App Store, about a dozen of them, it was a big waste of time and resources. Still, I am not holding that against Apple, they provided everyone with opportunities and many benefited from this greatly.

That said, I think they could have done a far better job of preventing the ecosystem from becoming a race to the bottom. This is where the optimization of the hardware sales vs. number of apps for free curve likely drove a decision that was not favorable for developers and entrepreneurs.

Early in the day we worked on an app for a client. Before they came to use they had already invested hundreds of thousands of dollars on the app. They needed a large rewrite due to Apple forcing code updates on everyone. This cost them a pile of cash. They made nothing with the app before engaging with us and still made nothing after we got done. They were in a segment dominated by the likes of Disney, who put millions of dollars into apps, gave them away for market share and, if that wasn't enough, poured real money into marketing.

This is where app discovery challenges and the race to the bottom truly hurt a lot of entrepreneurs. We abandoned all of our apps eventually. It just didn't make any sense to expend resources update code for zero return on investment.

I do think that 30% is high, yet that never really bothered me. I'd be glad to pay 30% if there was a real shot at app discovery and the entire ecosystem wasn't --using the term for dramatic emphasis-- tantamount to voluntary slavery for the benefit of Apple hardware sales. Sorry to be so negative, I imagine a wide deep path of entrepreneurial destruction created by Apple as a result of what the App Store devolved into. Apple sure made billions of dollars and lots of entrepreneurs did well. However, nobody ever gets a peek at what lies beneath the portion of the iceberg that protrudes through the surface. That portion, I am certain, is deep, wide and full of sad stories.

Put a different way: You can go sell products on Amazon for about the same 30% cut and have a FAR better chance of your products being found and making a profit.

Re: Apple releases study defending App Store's 30% cut ahead of testimony

#25

One can have a range of perspectives on this. 30% of nothing is nothing. Seriously, for a large number of developers the App Store is a big pile of nothingness. Apple accelerated a race to the unprofitable bottom rather than to create a bottom that could actually deliver a financial return for developers. I mean, they could have established a $1 minimum price for apps, rather than $0. They could have created minimum…

There is a very interesting article on how App stores lead to the prostitution of developers

I can't find it at the moment. If you can then do read it

He speaks to points very similar to what you are saying

Every free market with infinite/near infinite competition goes the same way

It's happening in games and books also

Re: Apple releases study defending App Store's 30% cut ahead of testimony

#26
post #23

The "everyone does it too" argument quickly breaks down if there's no alternative for you platform. On Android, you can easily sideload others stores, on PC you can use Epic Store or one of many others, but iOS has no other options.

How about Xbox or PlayStation? Those have both virtual as well as physical app stores in the form of game disks. There’s no way to avoid the lic fees in these platforms either.

The "everyone does it" is true in console gaming though, so the argument actually could apply them. Apple is the only mobile platform that it doesn't do the same as others (Android)

Re: Apple releases study defending App Store's 30% cut ahead of testimony

#27

One can have a range of perspectives on this. 30% of nothing is nothing. Seriously, for a large number of developers the App Store is a big pile of nothingness. Apple accelerated a race to the unprofitable bottom rather than to create a bottom that could actually deliver a financial return for developers. I mean, they could have established a $1 minimum price for apps, rather than $0. They could have created minimum…

There is a very interesting article on how App stores lead to the prostitution of developers I can't find it at the moment. If you can then do read it He speaks to points very similar to what you are saying Every free market with infinite/near infinite competition goes the same way It's happening in games and books also

That should be an interesting article.

One of the things that happens is that a lot of these ecosystems attract young entrepreneurs who, devoid of business experience, jump in head first and give it all they got. They see accidental success stories like Flappy Bird and think "If I can do 1/10 of that I'm set". Three years later they are alive to regret the opportunity cost they wasted on that decision.

I am going to say that in business you have to be quite sanguine. Not always, of course, but the world and your competitors want to eat you alive, and if you walk into one of these arenas unprepared you are going to get used, abused and tossed out.

I don't want to be negative on Apple but I would sure like to know the numbers on the millions of developers who contributed massive amounts of time to the growth of this platform with free apps of all kinds that didn't even buy a daily loaf of bread for them. While developers were enjoying their get-rich-quick scheme, Apple piled billions of dollars (I lost track, $100 BN, $200 BN, more?) by selling hardware on the strength of a platform made useful by millions of free apps that nobody made any money on.

In a nutshell, I don't really like it when folks get used and discarded --which is precisely how I see what Apple did. They controlled the platform. They could have setup a win-win. They did not.

Re: Apple releases study defending App Store's 30% cut ahead of testimony

#28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if it wasn't it still isn't [citation needed] A 10% change is not a 10% increase in profits, it's a 10% increase in margins. I could be going from 20% to 30%. I'd be making 50% more by porting my code to iOS than we previously forecast. Which also means I might invest more resources in doing it well which will also increase my profits. Because there is less risk involved with starting the project. When you're tryin…

You don't get any increase in margins for porting to iOS if the percentage changes for the Play Store because you can't sell to iOS customers via the Play Store.

You started with “most relevantly” and my initial reaction to this follow up is “how is that relevant at all”?

The costs of porting are relevant to value of the new audience. The value to the old audience is negative (what are we losing while they are focused in something else). The value to the team is complicated, has to be weighed, and big changes like new APIs or new revenue structures tip that balance.

Re: Apple releases study defending App Store's 30% cut ahead of testimony

#29
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get any increase in margins for porting to iOS if the percentage changes for the Play Store because you can't sell to iOS customers via the Play Store.

You started with “most relevantly” and my initial reaction to this follow up is “how is that relevant at all”? The costs of porting are relevant to value of the new audience. The value to the old audience is negative (what are we losing while they are focused in something else). The value to the team is complicated, has to be weighed, and big changes like new APIs or new revenue structures tip that balance.

> You started with “most relevantly” and my initial reaction to this follow up is “how is that relevant at all”?

It's relevant to whether the rates are based on competition, or to put it the other way, whether competition affects the rate they can charge.

If Google charged a lower rate, would it change the calculation for porting to iOS, so that Apple might have to lower their rate too? No, because you can't reach iOS customers via Google Play, so if you want to sell to them you still have to pay whatever Apple demands:

> If iOS was profitable before it still is, if it wasn't it still isn't.

Re: Apple releases study defending App Store's 30% cut ahead of testimony

#30
It’s not just the 30% cut, it’s the “loan” that stores get by withholding payments to developers for arbitrary amounts of time.

If you have a poorly-performing app, it may take months for a few “purchases” to even reach you! Meanwhile, all expenses (web hosting, $99/year developer fees, etc.) don’t stop, and any downsides (e.g. supporting “customers”, or reviews from “customers”) still affect you.

Apple loves to boast about its thousands of “developers” but imagine the size of the slush fund Apple can maintain if there are tons of poorly-selling apps not being paid out for awhile? It’s a large, interest-free loan to Apple. Meanwhile, discoverability and other features that could actually improve sales are entirely up to Apple (and most of these suck).

So if you devote most of your time to a poorly-discovered app that no one buys, you can’t make money. Thus, it isn’t surprising at all that lots of apps start to be “shoveled” into the store, in the hopes that the poor sales of all of them combined will be sustainable. Rinse and repeat.

Apple is directly responsible for huge problems with the app economy, and there is really no defense of their tactics at this point.

Post reply on HN