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Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

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Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can study without paying tens of thousands of dollars. There are also tons of productive uses of time that can be done during the pandemic. Now is a great time to volunteer.

Volunteer - unemployment is the worst for decades. There are literally half the population not working right now with nothing to do, its the least useful time to volunteer. (OK maybe I'm wrong)

You are uninformed. Please delete your post and stop spreading harmful misinformation.

1. Just because people aren't working doesn't mean they are volunteering. In fact, there's an exodus of volunteers, because retirees, the group which historically is most likely to volunteer, are also the most likely to isolate because they're at high risk from coronavirus. This is causing a massive shift in the demographic of volunteers. It's unclear to me whether the number of volunteers is going up or down overall, but it is clear that some organizations are being left short-handed by the change.

2. Quantity of volunteers does not necessarily mean that there's a good match between volunteer skillsets and the skills needed. The massive shift in volunteer demographics means that certain roles which were previously filled by people with a lot of experience, are now empty, and an excess of young enthusiastic volunteers doesn't fix that problem.

3. Unemployment also drastically increases the need felt by many communities. I'm not sure whether the supply of volunteers is up or down, but the demand for volunteers is clearly increased.

You don't have to trust me or x87678r: call your local charities and see if they need volunteers. I am confident you'll very quickly find that some do.

EDIT: My post is strongly worded, but I don't apologize. x87678r's comment is far more offensive than anything I said. If HN is more worried about some strong wording than about telling people not to volunteer in a time when millions of people desperately need help from volunteers, then our priorities are screwed up.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#152

I'd imagine the tuition should drop by about 30-50%, seeing as college costs are going to be dropping. I'm pretty sure in a skeptical sense they'll be trying to pay associate professors less for the same reason. and charging students more.

> I'm pretty sure in a skeptical sense they'll be trying to pay associate professors less for the same reason.

'Associate' is a tenured rank. Now, to be honest, universities should cut the pay of their highest-paid members first—and we've been getting the highly performative "admin taking nominal pay cuts" measures as sops to that—but I'd imagine it's far more likely that non-tenured assistant professors will see those pay cuts first (or perhaps, as maishe points out https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23918339 , you meant adjuncts, who get the weakest protections of any faculty).

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#153

A couple of years ago, I was looking into MOOCs for tech education, Udacity's nano degree in particular. I remember stumbling across a video on Youtube where some Udacity folks were discussing the merits of online education with college professors and admins. What stood out to me was how vehemently the college folks were against online education. They were visibly livid - there was no way substituting a live class ro…

Higher education so far as I can tell now is indistinguishable from a cult. You have to pay homage to various absurd beliefs, contribute money to them, and worship the value of it no matter what the apparent merit of it is, and more than anything it has its heresies which appear to be self-directed development and independent thinking.

>You have to pay homage to various absurd beliefs, contribute money to them, and worship the value of it no matter what the apparent merit of it is

What on earth is this referring to?

>its heresies which appear to be self-directed development and independent thinking

A place to learn to do research makes an heresy of "self-directed development and independent thinking"?

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#154

I'd imagine the tuition should drop by about 30-50%, seeing as college costs are going to be dropping. I'm pretty sure in a skeptical sense they'll be trying to pay associate professors less for the same reason. and charging students more.

Tuition should drop by 50% anyway. The same schools were able to deliver the same services at that price 30 years ago. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/how-much-college-tuition-has...

Tuition costs are ridiculously inflated, and I'd love to see them come down, but "the same thing used to be cheaper" is an argument that doesn't work in any other field. I'd rather see a discussion of the inflation-adjusted rate of increase, or perhaps some other appropriately adjusted metric; tuition numbers would still look terrible, so there's no need to weaken one's argument this way.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#155
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a real time ranking system for students at a university that is visible by all is just going to be targeted for greedy or ambitious people looking to convert it into jobs or money. If I am in the top 10 percent of the rankings in Rocket League sure I can make a few grand streaming, but if I am in the top 10 percent of rankings at a school I can get a better job than the rest. What are the bottom 90 percent's…

> What are the bottom 90 percent's motivation for helping people improve at that point? I think that's a great point but one that the Rocket League community somehow solves.

With very few exceptions, everyone who plays Rocket League is playing it because they find it intrinsically rewarding. When I taught intro stats I'd guess less than 2% of my students were studying stats because they found it intrinsically rewarding. Even when you get into upper level classes, even among graduate students, the percentage who are taking a class for the intrinsic reward rarely approaches 100%.

Trying to make education more like Rocket League, ignoring the wildly divergent motivations of the people involved, is a fool's errand.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, half your paycheck goes to the government and European tech salaries are nearly half that of the US. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

There are countries that are better to work in than others though, e.g., Switzerland salaries are near US with significantly better benefits. US is in the top 10 though.

Is this true when PPP-adjusted? I don't know Switzerland very well but I was under the impression that the price level was quite high.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#157
post #40

And here I am in Belgium, paying 2000 a year for a Masters degree.

Also, half your paycheck goes to the government and European tech salaries are nearly half that of the US. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

I used to believe that argument, and then I worked in California. My effective tax rate in Canada was ~43% and my effective tax rate in California is 31%. Considering that tuition isn't free, healthcare isn't free and child care isn't free, I fail to see what that 31% goes to.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#158
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What massive group of people is not indistinguishable from a cult? A book exists that argues that all mass movements (religion, cults, political parties) have very similar characteristics and can be analyzed with the same lens. I have no doubt that "supporters of X" can also be put in the same group where in this case X = higher education. I've never read this book but it was published several decades ago and I agree…

The book you might be referring to is "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer. Published in 1951. It's about 175 pages. If you've ever wondered why political correctness, BLM and anti-racism resemble a religion (non-theistic) it is definitely worth a read. *edit I would have liked to remove the part about political correctness, BLM and anti-racism as it does nothing to contribute to the discussion and the question can be…

This is the book, thank you for responding.

In general, I appreciate how old the book is because its removed from all modern political discussion yet the advice applies the same. I also appreciate how it has fans on all sides of the political aisle (details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer).

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#159

The linked article is the real interesting bit: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mandatory-online-cour... Note that it’s talking about high schools.

It doesn't seem completely apposite to me; it was written in 2019, so thinking of online courses in a situation when physical courses are possible—which is, in many places, not our current situation; a significant portion of my university's classes are going online, but I don't know any faculty who would be doing it if not out of concern for their and their students' safety–and it seems to be based on a lot of opinions, not so much on studies or evidence-based conclusions.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#160

A couple of years ago, I was looking into MOOCs for tech education, Udacity's nano degree in particular. I remember stumbling across a video on Youtube where some Udacity folks were discussing the merits of online education with college professors and admins. What stood out to me was how vehemently the college folks were against online education. They were visibly livid - there was no way substituting a live class ro…

I had a professor who was adamantly against any recordings of his lectures because he felt that it was a move by the university to cheat him out of pay by reusing content. Not sure where I land on that, but I would guess it's not an uncommon sentiment.

Only a matter of time before low pay adjuncts get told to grind out content.
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