Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “opinion” • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “opinion”

#241

Post by Gigablah » Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 5:48 AM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #190

thaumasiotes wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook endumbens people. It's there front and center of the stupidification process, whether it wants to be or not. Facebook isn't making anyone dumb. They were already dumb; you just didn't notice before.

You're correct that they were already dumb, but it does actively remove knowledge from their heads and replaces it with harder-to-budge falsehoods. That sclerosis of the neurons makes them act like people even dumber than their natural state of stupefaction.

With Facebook there is at least a chance, however minuscule, that you are exposed to different ideas. With media like Fox News, it’s straight out propaganda. This is what’s causing the polarization; the conspiracy theories and extremism have to come from somewhere. Why go after the symptom and not the cause?

Re: Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “opinion”

#242

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 6:07 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #76

koheripbal wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally, facts could assert themselves. Unfortunately, humans are needed to assert facts, and therefor any judgements based on facts require human interpretation. We can dissolve interpretations down as far as we like to leave as little room for bias and dishonesty (and that is a useful effort), but ultimately there will always be POWER in the hands of those who we abdicate arbitration authority to. ...and power corr…

> The alternative is creating a diverse ecosystem of organizations/individuals who's analysis/logic people can choose to subscribe to Allowing people to "choose" to subscribe to certain things has the ability to get them and others killed. That's why I mentioned the blood libel, while desperately casting around for something that people on HN wouldn't pointlessly dispute as subjective. The bar for "this is genuinely…

Certainly not every Jew would appreciate it if you argue that people need to be shielded from their opinions for their own safety.

> The bar for "this is genuinely dangerous" should be very high, though!

That is very gracious of you.

Re: Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “opinion”

#243

Post by MagnumOpus » Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 10:36 AM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #210

failuser wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

«Earth orbits the Sun» is not a very meaningful or scientific statement. «Frame of reference tied to the Sun is closer to an inertial one than the one tied to Earth» is better, but try explaining it to random person on Facebook.

What's wrong with "Earth orbits the sun"?

For nitpicky physicists, all objects in a system orbit each other, so the Earth as well as the sun and other planets orbit a common centre (which happens to be inside the sun).

For more obtuse people, they might nitpick that the system should include the entire milky way (so the earth as well as the sun rotate around the centre of the galaxy).

Re: Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “opinion”

#244

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 1:26 PM UTC

CarbyAu wrote: post #228

xaedes wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why I recently said: Fact checking == Truth Factory. Lets open a ministry for that, guess the name.

Uh, Ministry for Science?

[deleted]

Re: Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “opinion”

#245

Post by koheripbal » Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 2:03 PM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #187

koheripbal wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally, facts could assert themselves. Unfortunately, humans are needed to assert facts, and therefor any judgements based on facts require human interpretation. We can dissolve interpretations down as far as we like to leave as little room for bias and dishonesty (and that is a useful effort), but ultimately there will always be POWER in the hands of those who we abdicate arbitration authority to. ...and power corr…

So, how would you decide on an actual action in this system?

Consensus.

Which means promoting education and intelligence is critical to having a functioning government.

...and the first rule the consensus should pass is that experts in the field should provide the consensus within their domain area. ie. Climate Scientists should decide whether Climate Change is real (as a matter of policy) - not the general public.

Re: Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “opinion”

#246

Post by jfengel » Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

Gigablah wrote: post #241

jfengel wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct that they were already dumb, but it does actively remove knowledge from their heads and replaces it with harder-to-budge falsehoods. That sclerosis of the neurons makes them act like people even dumber than their natural state of stupefaction.

With Facebook there is at least a chance, however minuscule, that you are exposed to different ideas. With media like Fox News, it’s straight out propaganda. This is what’s causing the polarization; the conspiracy theories and extremism have to come from somewhere. Why go after the symptom and not the cause?

The cause is all mixed up in cause and effect. Fox News exists because there are people who want it. It amplifies what they believe and gradually pushes them to believe more extreme forms of it, but it's just one part of a huge ecosystem -- politicians, right-wing radio, religious leaders, etc. The common factor all of those have is the population.

Facebook doesn't have control of any of those things. The only thing it can control is itself. But it can at least reduce its own part in the way the people and the media perform for each other to be even more extreme. And Facebook is in a rare (if not unique) position to be directly in front of that population: it can't make Fox News go away, but it can put a flag in front of Fox News stories.

The "cause" is ultimately the individuals, not the media or the politicians or the wealthy think-tank funders. They don't have mind control. All they can do is appeal to people with what they already want to believe and amplify it -- a process that's been going on for at least four decades. Reversing it will take at least as long. I don't expect FB to solve it, but I do think it's a good idea for them to not allow themselves to be part of it.

Re: Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “opinion”

#247

Post by vorpalhex » Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

diegoholiveira wrote: post #217

koheripbal wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teach logic. ...at a young age. Fundamental logic and reason. That is the first step. Most of the dangerous content online is visibly illogical, and driven purely on emotion.

We're living in the age of emotions. Reason and logic are dead.

They are alive and well. Don't confuse Twitter and social media for the real world.

Re: Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “opinion”

#248

Post by jmcqk6 » Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

Covzire wrote: post #237

jmcqk6 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, talking about "the press" as though it's some monolithic entity is just wrong. "The Press" is made up of thousands and thousands of uncoordinated organizations and people. There are still honest and trustworthy members of "the press" out there and available. Just as each individual member of "the press" has a responsibility and duty to serve that role well, we also have a shared responsibility to hold t…

The question of who is exactly the point, the American ideal is all people get a voice. The more our voices are squashed by a powerful special interest, like the collective media and big tech, the more deranged our society will become. Everyone goes insane when left to themselves and group dynamics are no different. Whatever group of people you revere as 'good' the most, need to go through trials of their character b…

The problem is that people are believing things that are factually false and that leads them to cause problems for the entire group.

Nothing that you described will fix that problem at all.

How, exactly, are we going to fix that problem?

Re: Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “opinion”

#249

Post by Covzire » Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 3:53 PM UTC

jmcqk6 wrote: post #248

Covzire wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question of who is exactly the point, the American ideal is all people get a voice. The more our voices are squashed by a powerful special interest, like the collective media and big tech, the more deranged our society will become. Everyone goes insane when left to themselves and group dynamics are no different. Whatever group of people you revere as 'good' the most, need to go through trials of their character b…

The problem is that people are believing things that are factually false and that leads them to cause problems for the entire group. Nothing that you described will fix that problem at all. How, exactly, are we going to fix that problem?

Allow people to speak. To use your climate change example, climate change experts need to engage the public, even people they disagree with. The fact that they're not creates the appearance they are dishonest or have alternative agendas. Universities are the worst for this, they no longer allow free speech almost anywhere, and do not engage with anyone who disagrees with them once they've decided they have all the facts. Even if they're right, engagement is the only possible way to a society without oppression by the people who think they have the facts and the longer they avoid engagement, the more they will become deranged even if they do start out completely and factually correct.

Derangement is guaranteed in groups without full engagement of ideas and the media and universities (at large) are already at alarming levels of insanity in the ideas they're peddling, they've stopped engaging with critics long ago and now they want more power to silence those critics in their own homes. It's the definition of oppression masquerading as decency.

Re: Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “opinion”

#250

Post by jmcqk6 » Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 4:03 PM UTC

Covzire wrote: post #249

jmcqk6 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that people are believing things that are factually false and that leads them to cause problems for the entire group. Nothing that you described will fix that problem at all. How, exactly, are we going to fix that problem?

Allow people to speak. To use your climate change example, climate change experts need to engage the public, even people they disagree with. The fact that they're not creates the appearance they are dishonest or have alternative agendas. Universities are the worst for this, they no longer allow free speech almost anywhere, and do not engage with anyone who disagrees with them once they've decided they have all the fa…

>The fact that they're not creates the appearance they are dishonest or have alternative agendas.

What are you talking about? They are constantly trying to engage.

Your comment about universities doesn't ring true to me either. Universities are where you're most likely to find free exchanges of ideas today. You can cherry pick counter examples, but that ignores the larger truth, and the reality of larger society.

People do not want to hear how they are wrong. People do not want to be wrong. Allowing people to speak does not fix this problem. It does nothing to this problem at all. It is, in fact, the current reality.

You speak of not engaging with critics, but what I've found is that the people who are ignoring basic facts about the world are the ones that are least likely to have honest exchanges about their own ideas.

Still, you have offered no such solution to that problem.