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Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

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Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#211
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTF has a CG'd face got to do with anything? Seriously, I'd like to know (I've never seen that film either).

I'm pretty sure he's making a joke about this other article that got submitted: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2384499 in which someone mentions that they use people's opinions about whether or not they side with the Winklevoss twins in the movie as to whether or not they would be a good co-founder. I actually thought this comment was pretty funny, but if you didn't read the earlier article, it probably doesn't…

You got it, dude.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#212
Well stated and pretty much spot on, with one exception...

The notion about "Programmers who are good program all the time, even in their spare time."

It has been my personal observation that this period of "Programming is the only thing worth doing with your life" (And yes, I know I am paraphrasing this in an unkind interpretation of what you said, I'm not doing it to be mean though, I'm doing it to illustrate a point) is true, for the first 5 to 7 or 8 years of a programmer's career. The reason seems to be that the deep fascination with what makes programming interesting as a career, continues to hold them even in the evening hours when they are at home. When not actually programming, they talk about programming, or programming problems or some aspect of computers and computing technology, when they can find friends to talk about it with, that is.

However, the basic drive behind this seems to be finding out as much as you can possibly find out about your chosen field or niche within the field. After that time period, though, something interesting happens. The MYSTERY of it all, starts to fade. You begin to see patterns in how things work, and similarities in how things are done, or are implemented, or can be implemented. Other interests start to take hold and after a while, family life starts to become important as well. At least, for a well balanced human, it does.

And that, I think, becomes my major point. The kinds of programmers who live eat breathe and drink programming, non stop, past this time period, are RARE, and usually are not well socially adjusted.

This is something that I think is not accounted for when interviewing more experienced software engineers. When looking at the scads of job openings for folks with 3 to 5 years of experience, your methodology and assumptions should work well, however, when you are looking for that really senior guy or gal who has been doing this for over 20 years, then the methodology, in my opinion, will not yield to you the best results. ie. teasing out the best candidate from the stack.

As an aside, I once told this to a young friend of mine who I met in college. I had already been programming for nearly ten years when I returned to school to get my bachelors in CompSci. I was always fascinated with just HOW MUCH he would go on and gush about computers, tech, sun workstations, sgi's, their hardware, their software, how to program them, linux and unix tricks etc etc.. One day I smiled and said to him. "I'll give you 5 to 7 years, and this utter all consuming fascination with computers will tone down to seeing them as nothing more than tools." He denied it, vehemently, he would NEVER have computers be something so mundane! It was, about 7 years later that I got an email from him where he told me "You were right." He's a googler now, and was one of the lucky ones who was in early, pre ipo and can now retire if he wants to. I myself tried getting into google, but made some mistakes in the interview process, trying to be 'clever'. It backfired, but that's okay. And not once did they ever ask me anything about what it is I do, or what I do best, or what I was interviewing for, board bring up, device drivers and kernel porting. Things which I'm very good at and have done for over 25 years.

Anyways, just my .02, your mileage may vary!

Sincerely, Richard Dorfner

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#213
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've wondered about that myself. I wanted to stay, I liked it there. But it's like many relationships in life, if both parties don't want it, it won't pan out. Edit: I also had to take time off for studies and I suspect they really wanted all-hands-on-deck.

If a person is fired from a company, and that person doesn't really know why, it is not a plaudit for that company or the managers involved.

A tribunal would find out soon enough. Ker-ching!

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#214
post #42

The spare time issue is an interesting one. One one side we have companies saying that they look for programmers who are working on projects after they get off work and on weekends. On the other side we have companies having employees sign a contract claiming that everything they do 24/7 belongs to the company. Often both sides are the same company. It's not an issue for me only because I work for my own firm, someth…

[deleted]

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#215
post #42

The spare time issue is an interesting one. One one side we have companies saying that they look for programmers who are working on projects after they get off work and on weekends. On the other side we have companies having employees sign a contract claiming that everything they do 24/7 belongs to the company. Often both sides are the same company. It's not an issue for me only because I work for my own firm, someth…

The spare time issue is as much a bad crutch as the tricky questions are.

I work long hours for a company which has the "we own your life" clause. All but one company I've worked at has had that clause, ironically the one exception was a start up!

And even if that clause wasn't there, when I leave work I'll be damned if I touch a computer. I guess I'm not a true hard core hacker, elite geek or code ninja, or what ever the latest buzz word is.

But I'm not stupid. I myself ask for code samples when I interview people. So I made sure I have two open source projects. They are so old, you can find them on source-forge!

The first one is a silly toy application I wrote waaay back in college. And when I started interviewing I was very worried about how trivial it was. But it impressed everyone who saw it. I learned you can always tell who has real programming talent, no matter how small or trivial the project is. This is why I now want code samples from people I interview.

My other project came a bit later, it's not my project it's a bunch of patches which were accepted for a large highly complex project. A good chunk of it was just memory leak fixing and comments ranting about destructor shearing.

Have I touched either one of those projects in years? Hell no!

When I leave a job I plan to work on open source projects, but every time I end up getting a great offer before I'm even out the door. I have to fight to get a few weeks of vacation between jobs, and that's a vacation from computers as well.

My advice, is take two weeks, and write a tiny, trivial, open source project, a calendar app, a scrabble app, anything. And then let that be your side project.

And if someone is crazy enough to expect everyone with a day job, to also have an active programming hobby, just don't work for them.

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#217
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last interview at the company I'm at now went somewhat like this: "Your CV looks fine, we wouldn't care if you're an axe murderer, now what would you like to do/tackle?". Should have been a warning sign: interesting company to be at.

What do you mean by interesting? Do they have a lot of axe murderers there?

Doesn't every company have a Murder Division?

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#219
Hello Mr. Schroeter,

I have enjoyed your post on DZone (http://www.dzone.com/links/r/hiring_developers_youre_doing_i...) and have decided to let you know about it. This topic of 'interviewing the right candidate' has always intrigued me. I have always wondered if the superstars amongst the technology-driven companies have devised a surefire method to pick the right candidate from thousands! In my experience, the decision to go for a candidate or not, is very subjective as you have mentioned. At a certain point in time during the interview, one listens to a inner voice and decides between 'Yeah!' or 'Nah!' and not always that decision is based on pure facts: precise answers to precise questions. But, to know the personality of a programmer - through some questions and possible answers in an hour's conversation - is a difficult task. You have not mentioned if you had cracked it finally in your star-up or your later efforts/engagements. I will be keen to know.

I am based in India currently. Here, because of the business success of the IT Service companies, most of the companies try to follow their business model. However, about 95% of the work that these companies take up are low-tech, mostly repetitive and disincentivize breakthrough technical work. Their need for good programmers is not much; they are content to see that the client is that much happy to keep the projects continuing: that is the main objective. Moreover, you seem to say that 'scaling' is not an insurmountable problem. It probably is, if you see that the Indian IT service companies cite hiring figures in tens of thousands in an year. So, the interview process that these companies stick to, aims to find out how much is the probability that the candidate is going to prove himself a misfit. Subjective, as usual; for a good measure, the companies take in people in huge numbers simply hoping that the probability of a 'good fit' increases. For a bit more experienced people, it is almost always aimed to find out if the candidate can 'manage' a team, and certainly not whether the candidate understands the world of programming at all.

I work as a freelancer and in India, that doesn't help me. I claim to know and understand what it takes to 'design' and 'develop' a good piece of software. More than that, I carry a certain amount of intensity about the whole act of programming and usefulness of well-written programs, even at this advanced age. However, that doesn't interest most of the potential employers because a good programmer - who knows some but is eager to work in a team where people know more than he does - is not valued as much. Importantly, it requires a keen pair of eyes to spot these qualities and that is largely missing.

Recently, situation here has made me so despondent that I have begun to look for opportunities outside India, Europe in particular (I have stayed and worked there before, hence the bias). I am hoping that there will be some people out there who will take some interest in not only what I know and have done, but how fast I can know more and can do if I join them. I am looking for those keen pair of eyes. Agreed that there are those issues of geographical distance and visa papers etc., but if someone finds me suitable, s/he may want to go that extra mile.

If you have read till this point, thanks for your patience. I read your post at a moment when I was in despair and wanted to demonstrate that your post chimed with me.

Warm regards

-- Nirmalya (sengupta.nirmalya@gmail.com)

-- Software Technologist http://www.linkedin.com/in/nirmalyasengupta

Re: Hiring Developers: You're Doing It Wrong

#220
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing preventing them from quitting after 3 months with a normal offer.

Depends on the contract. Over here (Finland) it's very common to have a three months "trial period", during which both the employer and employee are free to terminate the contract at (practically) any point and for any reason. However, after that three months, you need to give a one month advance notice to quit and firing someone becomes more complicated too.

Same here in Australia; I'm about to start a trial period of a few months with a single week's notice for termination from either side.

(Every job I've held has had this in some form or other. I'd wager it's common in countries with termination rules that aren't quite so, uh, "at will" as the US'.)

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