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India, Jio, and the Four Internets

stratechery.com

141–150 of 279 posts

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#141
post #88
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly gives you more faith in the old continent? The thousands of unicorns Europe has? No, there are hardly any. The UX nightmares cookie laws create? No. Lower bandwidth fees than in the US? That is actually because of regulatory capture in the US, plus the sheer size of the continent, nothing to do with free markets. So how exactly is Europe so great? The most unicorns came out of the UK who have just decide…

Another problem created in Europe by iverregulation is MOSS. EU is a "single market" but with thousands of rules when it comes to taxation. It is very hard for B2C digital services startups to sell on the European market, because you have to charge taxes according to the rules of any of the 27 countries. Of course, this is an easy problem to solve for the behemoths.

It seems a little unfair to single out Europe or the EU for this. If the EU didn't exist, then the situation wouldn't be any better (of course, you can hope that the EU would make the situation better than it is, but that requires greater harmonisation which is non-trivial and some may find unpalatable). And it's not just countries in Europe that require businesses to charge taxes according to the rules of the various countries -- many countries around the world do exactly the same. And as I understand it, differing sales tax across states in the USA can also create headaches. So it doesn't seem to me that this issue is specific to either Europe or the EU.

As for the behemoths being able to solve the problem, there are options for smaller players as well, like using a specialist who handles all the tax issues for you worldwide -- for example Paddle (I'm unaffiliated and have never used them; I'm just aware of their existence).

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#142
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not going to take sides but Europe does have innovation. It’s just not necessarily commercial or they have been bought out. JetBrains, Minecraft, Python, Linux, HTTP/HTML, ARM, DeepMind.

Wouldn't really count the UK as part of continental Europe, i see them more as a part of the anglo sphere(US,UK,AUS and NZ). But wouldn't also say programming language can be claimed by a continent because most are global effort or contributions. The scenario in my head is what if the US decides to put the same kind of sanction/embargos they have put on Russia, Iran and China how well will the EU handle such a econom…

The US won't probably go as far as to enact sanctions against the EU but rather pressure its leaders to support US against Russia and China, like banning Huawei spyware or commonly applying sanctions. Which we should probably do anyway because its in our common interest.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#143
post #109
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Plenty of municipalities wanted to do exactly what you describe, since the benefits to their residents are obvious. No, municipalities were building out their own ISP because of a lack of the federal government drumroll ... mandating a 1-wire rule. They were left to try to come up with their own solution and their own funding. I've yet to hear of a single municipality building out last-mile fiber and leasing it back…

> municipalities were building out their own ISP Municipalities were trying to build out their own last mile infrastructure . Some of them wanted to add ISP functionality on to that, but not all. In other words, they were already trying to do exactly what a "1 wire rule" would have mandated. > They were left to try to come up with their own solution In other words, municipalities were trying to do what was best for t…

>Municipalities were trying to build out their own last mile infrastructure. Some of them wanted to add ISP functionality on to that, but not all. In other words, they were already trying to do exactly what a "1 wire rule" would have mandated.

Building out last-mile != becoming an ISP. The city builds roads that lead to my house, they don't sell me the car I drive down the road or the gas I fill it with.

>Yes, and funding was never an issue. Many municipalities were trying to build, or had already started building, last-mile 1-wire infrastructure with their own funding that would have required ISPs to compete for access at aggregation points, exactly as you describe. What stopped them, as I said, was regulations and lawsuits.

You're completely out of touch if you think funding isn't an issue. There's a reason the federal government has handed out hundreds of BILLIONS to expand internet coverage in the US.

>Regulatory capture and a broken US legal system that allows large corporations with deep pockets to make frivolous lawsuits against municipalities that they know can't afford to defend themselves. If we forced plaintiffs to pay all legal costs for the defendants if they lose their lawsuit, those frivolous lawsuits would go away.

Are you serious? Comcast makes billions of dollars a year, they can sue and lose repeatedly and it isn't a blip on their radar. A city with a budget measured in the hundreds of thousands per year would immediately cease and desist if they were faced with a multi-million dollar settlement should they lose the case. It would literally have the exact opposite effect of what you're claiming it would do. The city can provide a city lawyer to defend itself, but having to pay for Comcasts lawyers who will no doubt inflate their hours and wages a hundred fold? Good luck.

>Yes, indeed; see above. But why should we allow them to get away with frivolous lawsuits? Why not do the obvious thing to fix that particular problem, as described above?

Your "solution" fixes absolutely nothing. Comcast will still sue, only the city will immediately stop buildout - and small cities won't even bother trying to start if they know there's a possibility they'll be sued. Comcast won't even have to go to court, they just have to write a nastygram!

>Smart regulation that was targeted at obvious abuses, like the lawsuits mentioned above, would greatly improve the situation, without having to have the government try to impose one-size-fits-all policies on everyone

I love this saying as if it's a bad thing. I was just telling my neighbors the other day that 1-size-fits-all regulations like clean water and fiber internet are horrible and really need to be specialized. Some of us want arsenic and lead in our water and dial-up internet in 2020, the government overreach is unbearable!

Regulation has never been the issue in the US. EVERY SINGLE TIME regulation gets rolled back, the exact issue it was intended to fix comes right back. See the mortgage crisis for the latest example.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#144
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of Jio's dominance is just dumping? It seems unfair to cross-subsidize an industry like this. It's good for users in the short term, but if competition dwindles, it'll be bad for Indians long-term.

Jio actually broke the dominance of Airtel in India. Its a perfectly executed strategy IMO and capitalism at work. The company bled money to undercut Airtel and other companies to gain market share and they did it really well. Now they are the market leaders. I wish something like that happened in the US. It often feels like companies collude with pricing here.

The same is happening in India where pricing of major telecom is at par with other.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#145
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nicely put. I think the idea of disruptive innovation by technology is very much influenced by the industrial revolution in the west. And only now is that we've started to discuss in public domain the consequences of it on nature and our species. Sadly, most of the Indian entrepreneurs today are still influenced by the Western model of technical innovation and disruption having blind spots about how to use technology…

A lot of Indian entrepreneurs who have grown in cities do not even understand the problems of the real India and blindly copy western solutions in many cases. Dining at an upscale restaurant or shopping at a fancy retailer in a swanky neighborhood you can see how weird some of the solutions are.

[deleted]

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#146
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, DDG was blocked by ALL Indian ISPs during that instance, not just Jio. People using Airtel, Vodafone, etc. were as much complaining in forums as the Jio users. From what I recall, BSNL was the only one who didn't block (due to their inefficiency perhaps!) Secondly, with the kind of minuscule market share DDG has, they or their users can hardly get impacted by a couple hours' block. If anything, Indian govt.…

> Secondly, with the kind of minuscule market share DDG has, they or their users can hardly get impacted by a couple hours' block I would like to know the exact market share of DDG in India. Also people who use DDG use it as their search engine. It would impact that "minuscule" percent of people the same way the majority of people would get impacted if google.com was banned for a couple of hours. > If anything, India…

> I would like to know the exact market share of DDG in India.

Its very little as I've yet to come across someone who knows it outside techie circles. Even many techies still use google because they seem to think it gives better results.

Really? So it's not that minuscule market share?

Consider the amount of time and energy the PR departments of various companies spend to get themselves trending on twitter each day? Whatever the size of their market share, it certainly increased that day because of the trending. People who've never heard about DDG started asking what it is and thus got to know about it.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#147
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need an internet that works for its citizens and members, and on that front I have still more trust in the old continent I broadly agree with the spirit of this line. But I fail to see how Europe is achieving that. Can you share a few specific (and meaningful) examples of how European approach has created an outcome which works better for its citizens and members? So far from what I have seen, European companies…

"the key regulatory initiatives either haven't proven effective in curbing US giants' powers (eg. GDPR)" Would you mind expanding on that? Perhaps you have information that I do not, but from what I understand, large US tech companies with a presence in Europe do abide by the GDPR, which includes data privacy audits and large fines for non-compliance.

Even though they abide by GDPR, neither their market share nor their business model has changed. Neither do we see any new companies (or new business models) gaining market share from the US based ones. In that sense, GDPR has not curbed US giants' power. So what did GDPR achieve in practice? (Or maybe, you and I just had different expectations from GDPR to begin with).

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything, Europe is creating a more sustainable framework for private companies and government intervention. Cross the moat, and you don't have to worry about castles. Just build a good product. That's what I'm reading. So it's just a market with restrictions for outside companies? I think the point of the article was the absence vision for Europe to generate its own compelling products and companies that spread…

At the end of the day, Europe is a country, not a company. It isn't about maximizing profits. It's about maximizing the equity among citizens. I'd argue that the majority of consumers will take anything for free and not think about the consequences. Very much like an innocent child getting free food samples. Private businesses have no incentive to correct themselves. At the end of the day, if I was Europe, as a gover…

> It's not about becoming a super power and spreading across the world. It's ensuring that your citizens are safe, protected and well-looked after even at the expense of increased starting costs. It's a better long-term win for the consumer.

So far this is the strategy being played out, and it isn’t doing much for the economy of Europe. Basically everyone sells to Europe, and then money exits. That isn’t a very good long term strategy considering the size of the tech economy; even if you want to protect your citizens then economic well-being needs to be considered as well, in addition to self-reliant autonomy.

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But where are the examples of the valued products in large use? Let's see.. Spotify ok, Mojang hmmmhmmm.... Rovio? Outside of Spotify, what do I use on a daily basis as an American that's a valued EU-based company?

> what do I use on a daily basis as an American that's a valued EU-based company? Booking.com? Adyen? (they're worth more than Stripe)

Pretty short list...

Re: India, Jio, and the Four Internets

#150
post #112
post #86

Too much overconfidence in Reliance. This is the same firm well known for totally missing the boat on India's IT boom. It has done a great job deploying the network. Unmatched probably anywhere in the world. But that set of skills has nothing to do with charting out a vision that will work in future. That set of skills to rollout a network at huge scale quickly, existed in India because of cut throat competition in t…

Maybe we are underestimating the power of their relations with the present government, in terms of an ally that can be used to threaten or harm competitors both Indian and foreign. Just like TikTok can be banned, other services can eventually be banned too, under the garb of nationalism or whatever and India can potentially go the full China way with Reliance as the Indian Baidu or Alibaba, or at least as a major ren…

Yup thats a good point. Govt is a factor. Will be interesting to see what happens when interests don't align between the two.
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